Knife for I.D. Chinese? Tibetan? Bhutanese?

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by kronckew

The sword is apparently not unique, one very similar to the one in norman's post #1 was sold at auction not long ago ago in the UK.


The auction description, like most, was almost complete nonsense.
19TH CENTURY FAR EAST ASIAN SHORT SWORD,

possibly Japanese, with fullered steel blade over a quatrefoil guard, leather and foliate engraved steel grip, 38cm long, with original hardwood mounted scroll and Greek key engraved scabbard with suspension frog.

Postscript: Silly Monks, coulda sold all those sharp pointy weapons to us and lived high on the hog for a goodly while.

Just to avoid the confusion that appears to be happening. The knife above that kronckew posted is the one I have.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Wayne,
Not similar that is mine. I did ignore the auction blurb as with a lot of auction houses it is either fanciful, Spartan or wrong. As you possibly saw it didn’t cost much so I chanced my arm. Some you win some you lose.
My Regards,
Norman.

OOps! I didn't actually see that auction item, it was stumbled on from another source. I wanted to add another example. I found it on {deleted} where it just showed as auction 'closed' and no details were available. I also buy things via {deleted}.


Auction descriptions are often very fanciful and wrong. I just paid for an Indonesian European-style klewang )posted on the forum here) that had been listed as a middle eastern short sword (along with a Masai seme, they got that one right)!

[werecow]

EDIT: Oops, missed that reply by Norman. No matter, I consider my retrodiction preemptively vindicated. }|<o)

Original post:


I'm not entirely convinced they aren't literally the same sword/knife. }|:o.

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by werecow

EDIT: Oops, missed that reply by Norman. No matter, I consider my retrodiction preemptively vindicated. }|<o)

Original post:


I'm not entirely convinced they aren't literally the same sword/knife. }|.

Exactly, it is one and the same.
Regards,
Norman

[Jerseyman]

I acquired this item earlier this year. I assumed it was Tibetan Plateau though I couldn't find any images of this exact type. It seems to be stylistically related to Norman's piece, so I thought it worth posting. Unfortunately I don't have the measurements to hand - if I have time to dig it out I'll post them. If anyone has any information on the cultural context, or even better any sources referencing these I would be grateful to hear.

[JBG163]

Hi Jerseyman,

Honestly only the hilt have a tibetan plateau feeling. Again, blade seems to be from a bayonet (probably pimped with carving), as much as the scabbard. I sadly can't argue about if it's genuine or not. Two members with quite knowledge have opposite opinion.

A good way would be to search in museum. I have searched in several collection without finding anything.

Now my two cents, (not worth more than what it is) : my feelings tell me to avoid that type of things. Even if the aesthetics of the hilt can be appealing, the craft itself, the carving style and deep, etc... feel off for early work. (Again, in my opinion), it would lead me to two possibilities : or it is modern, or it is really late (like late 20th), reusing bayonets blades.

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by JBG163

Hi Jerseyman,

Honestly only the hilt have a tibetan plateau feeling. Again, blade seems to be from a bayonet (probably pimped with carving), as much as the scabbard. I sadly can't argue about if it's genuine or not. Two members with quite knowledge have opposite opinion.

A good way would be to search in museum. I have searched in several collection without finding anything.

Now my two cents, (not worth more than what it is) : my feelings tell me to avoid that type of things. Even if the aesthetics of the hilt can be appealing, the craft itself, the carving style and deep, etc... feel off for early work. (Again, in my opinion), it would lead me to two possibilities : or it is modern, or it is really late (like late 20th), reusing bayonets blades.

Hi,
I would like to address the’bayonet, issue. I can only speak for mine as it is the one in hand. I have handled many bayonets in my collecting days 50 plus years and one of the consistencies especially for those manufactured in the 20thC is the regularity of manufacture i.e. fuller depth and length, length and thickness of blade etc., if you look at post no12 you will see images of both sides of my knife. There are glaring inconsistencies from side to side, the fuller is different on both sides with the ends suggesting they have not been ground in with factory machinery, the edge grind in different on both sides again suggesting hand grinding rather than factory work although this could have developed over time but again that would suggest the knife had been in use for an extended period of time as does the edge grind itself which suggests multiple sharpening over a decent time period. I did think bayonet when I first looked at the knife but the above suggested to me that that may not be the case. I am not familiar with Chinese bayonets etc., only with European/American style bayonets so I maybe missing something but I am relatively sure that the knife blade is not from any bayonet that I know regarding shape, altered or not, nor of steel quality.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Even if the blade was repurposed from a bayonet that still does not stop the item being a useable tool from a particular culture. Many cultures reuse items particularly those without an industrialised infrastructure.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Having had a look at the knife posted by Jerseyman the scabbard does indeed look like it comes from a bayonet. It particularly reminds me of the German K98 although the frog attachment is different or possibly altered to accommodate a similar hanging method to the one I posted. The Germans had of course been to Tibet re their 1938/39 expedition so it is not out with the bounds of possibility. The fuller on the knife Jerseyman posted is not the same as the K98 bayonet itself. Just some thoughts.
Regards,
Norman.

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Jerseyman

I acquired this item earlier this year. I assumed it was Tibetan Plateau though I couldn't find any images of this exact type. It seems to be stylistically related to Norman's piece, so I thought it worth posting. Unfortunately I don't have the measurements to hand - if I have time to dig it out I'll post them. If anyone has any information on the cultural context, or even better any sources referencing these I would be grateful to hear.

these are made to look like bayonets form british and german rifles use din tibet. i have seen such things form china too.. they probably were made at a high point in the interwar period. they are not bayonets but look like them.
with a huge surge of more modern weapons in these areas such items as bayonets become interesting to locals. these are not made with any parts of a bayonet buy made to imitate them in soem way.
such fashions also occurred in the late 19th century in both west africa and also parts of west africa where you can find belt knives imitating mostly german bayonets i have also see uyghur examples and some from afghanistan. there is probably other parts of the world where such a fashion existed but i cant think of it right now.

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
I would like to address the’bayonet, issue. I can only speak for mine as it is the one in hand. I have handled many bayonets in my collecting days 50 plus years and one of the consistencies especially for those manufactured in the 20thC is the regularity of manufacture i.e. fuller depth and length, length and thickness of blade etc., if you look at post no12 you will see images of both sides of my knife. There are glaring inconsistencies from side to side, the fuller is different on both sides with the ends suggesting they have not been ground in with factory machinery, the edge grind in different on both sides again suggesting hand grinding rather than factory work although this could have developed over time but again that would suggest the knife had been in use for an extended period of time as does the edge grind itself which suggests multiple sharpening over a decent time period. I did think bayonet when I first looked at the knife but the above suggested to me that that may not be the case. I am not familiar with Chinese bayonets etc., only with European/American style bayonets so I maybe missing something but I am relatively sure that the knife blade is not from any bayonet that I know regarding shape, altered or not, nor of steel quality.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Even if the blade was repurposed from a bayonet that still does not stop the item being a useable tool from a particular culture. Many cultures reuse items particularly those without an industrialised infrastructure.

it is not a bayonet blade but an imitation of one. it is an imitation of an SMLE bayonet and a german mauser scabbard.

the Bonan ethnic group still makes bayonet inspired daggers and knives today.. you can see them among their more utilitarian belt knives and more traditional daggers some times.