Folding knife, origin opinions please

Kmaddock · 31st July 2022, 11:46 AM

Hi All,

I just purchased what I thought was a Spanish Navaja folding knife, but now I am unsure? I just bought cos I like it so no worries if origin is somewhere else.

Lots of nice features,
horn handle, brass inlay on the black of the handle, silver design in steel/silver pins in the handle, brass inlay in the blade, Marking on the blade (which looks like a fish to me) and a reinforced tip.

overall V light in construction so I do not think it is a working knife but blade is still sharp enough

So any idea as to what it might be and approx age would be great. Overall length 21 cm with a blade of 9.5 cm

regards to all

Ken

PS purchased in Ireland and no back story

Kmaddock · 2nd August 2022, 10:23 AM

Hi All

I was holding the knife last night and it occurred to me that when holding the knife open (there is no lock) my thumb naturally rests on the "fish like area" and this would be a convenient way to hold the blade open.

Thanks all

REgards

Ken

fernando · 2nd August 2022, 10:36 AM

Come on Gentlemen, not a single opinion about this beautiful piece ?

Richard G · 2nd August 2022, 01:05 PM

Personally, I think something a bit 'glitzier' is needed to match those fingernails.

Kmaddock · 2nd August 2022, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Personally, I think something a bit 'glitzier' is needed to match those fingernails.

Richard don't worry about my wife and the bling,

I will not show her your comment as she does OK enough as is

Cheers,

Ken

Interested Party · 2nd August 2022, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Hi All

I was holding the knife last night and it occurred to me that when holding the knife open (there is no lock) my thumb naturally rests on the "fish like area" and this would be a convenient way to hold the blade open.

My work knife for agriculture is springless as well. I put a couple drops of water on the end with the blade's pivot point most mornings to help keep the friction adjusted and prevent it from opening and closing accidently. Horn would render that technique more difficult. One advantage of the curved horn handle is that if it opens in your pocket a bit it is harder to slice your hand (I have done that with an Opinel) which is why I only carry bill style knives of that lock design now.

I took a cursory glance of Medrano's Reflexiones sobre la navaja antigigua and came up empty handed. The only fish I found was the "Pez Judio" which wasn't close. I attached a list of German makers numbers 52 & 48 being the closest I found to yours, but not it exactly. Yours is definitely a stamp not a carving. There are some manuscript facsimiles which I didn't get through. The problem I saw while reading descriptions of marks is does this mark represent a fish? It also is close to the "vessel" of the Islamic world. I know, it most likely isn't, but it is a good example to illustrate my point.

It is a pretty piece. It is interesting that with all the decoration it is a penny knife (springless). This makes me wonder if it was made by a village smith who didn't want to bother with the troubles of making a spring and/or a lock, and therefore whose mark was less likely to be recorded? To me being a penny knife means that it was made as a pure tool or a decoration, not a weapon.

Chris Evans · 2nd August 2022, 03:07 PM

Hi Ken,

I looked through all my books, including Forton's, trying to identify the ccutler's mark, all to no avail. Also, I couldn't find one quite like it. My gut feeling is that it is not Spanish.

We have to remember that "navajas" and variations thereof were made widely not only in Europe but also as afar as India.

Cheers
Chris

Raf · 2nd August 2022, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Richard don't worry about my wife and the bling,

I will not show her your comment as she does OK enough as is

Cheers,

Ken

?

fernando · 2nd August 2022, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... My gut feeling is that it is not Spanish ...

I am with you Chris; too many details to exclude such probability. That blade tip is perfectly blunt. Meaning that this knife is exclusively made to only cut with its edge, no chance for it to pierce; there ought to be a purpose to be so. As for the precious decoration, well ... no comments

.

Raf · 2nd August 2022, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I am with you Chris; too many details to exclude such probability. That blade tip is perfectly blunt. Meaning that this knife is exclusively made to only cut with its edge, no chance for it to pierce; there ought to be a purpose to be so. As for the precious decoration, well ... no comments

.

Think . 4 crosses? symbol of fish ?

fernando · 2nd August 2022, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raf

Think . 4 crosses? symbol of fish ?

What ... a sports fish knife ?

.

Raf · 2nd August 2022, 06:46 PM

The images I posted were from the Science Museum Study group . Described as circumcision knives or for general surgery.Early nineteenth century. Made sense to me if not to anyone else .

fernando · 3rd August 2022, 10:14 AM

On a benefit of the doubt basis, i googled on circumcision knives. Amazing how zillions of them show up ... and in styles for all tastes.
Still i don't subscribe the thesis that Ken's knife is one of them. If i am wrong, you may tie me to the whipping post

.

Kmaddock · 3rd August 2022, 11:15 AM

Thanks all for your considered opinions,

The tip is not completely blunt and it would pierce skin with a gentle amount of force behind it.

It is a nice piece and I will put it down to early to mid 1800's, It is not what I collect but I enjoy it all the same and happy to have it in my collection.

Regards all,

Ken

fernando · 3rd August 2022, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

... It is not what I collect but I enjoy it all the same ...

And if you don't ... just tell

.

Lee · 3rd August 2022, 02:30 PM

Personally, I consider an earlier Spanish Navaja as plausible. The work on the brass cap, the brass filled 'dots' on the scales and the brass washer around the pivot all resemble features of my battered old Spanish Navaja. The blunted tip would seem to make sense should it open partially in the pocket.

Old post with pictures of mine.

Significance of rounded point.

Wherever it is from, I also really do like your knife.

Interested Party · 3rd August 2022, 02:44 PM

Could the tip serve as a marl spike for small cord such as old fishing lines?

Kmaddock · 3rd August 2022, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Could the tip serve as a marl spike for small cord such as old fishing lines?

It is a very light knife overall,
Not much leverage could be applier to the tip, as such I do not think it is a marlin spike.

Thanks all for interest.
Ken

31st July 2022, 11:46 AM	#1
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Folding knife, origin opinions please Hi All, I just purchased what I thought was a Spanish Navaja folding knife, but now I am unsure? I just bought cos I like it so no worries if origin is somewhere else. Lots of nice features, horn handle, brass inlay on the black of the handle, silver design in steel/silver pins in the handle, brass inlay in the blade, Marking on the blade (which looks like a fish to me) and a reinforced tip. overall V light in construction so I do not think it is a working knife but blade is still sharp enough So any idea as to what it might be and approx age would be great. Overall length 21 cm with a blade of 9.5 cm regards to all Ken PS purchased in Ireland and no back story Attached Images

3rd August 2022, 02:30 PM	#16
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	I also really do like your knife Personally, I consider an earlier Spanish Navaja as plausible. The work on the brass cap, the brass filled 'dots' on the scales and the brass washer around the pivot all resemble features of my battered old Spanish Navaja. The blunted tip would seem to make sense should it open partially in the pocket. Old post with pictures of mine. Significance of rounded point. Wherever it is from, I also really do like your knife.

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2nd August 2022, 10:23 AM	#2
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi All I was holding the knife last night and it occurred to me that when holding the knife open (there is no lock) my thumb naturally rests on the "fish like area" and this would be a convenient way to hold the blade open. Thanks all REgards Ken

2nd August 2022, 10:36 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Come on Gentlemen, not a single opinion about this beautiful piece ?

2nd August 2022, 01:05 PM	#4
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 405	Personally, I think something a bit 'glitzier' is needed to match those fingernails.

2nd August 2022, 03:07 PM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 676	Hi Ken, I looked through all my books, including Forton's, trying to identify the ccutler's mark, all to no avail. Also, I couldn't find one quite like it. My gut feeling is that it is not Spanish. We have to remember that "navajas" and variations thereof were made widely not only in Europe but also as afar as India. Cheers Chris

2nd August 2022, 06:46 PM	#12
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	The images I posted were from the Science Museum Study group . Described as circumcision knives or for general surgery.Early nineteenth century. Made sense to me if not to anyone else .

3rd August 2022, 10:14 AM	#13
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	On a benefit of the doubt basis, i googled on circumcision knives. Amazing how zillions of them show up ... and in styles for all tastes. Still i don't subscribe the thesis that Ken's knife is one of them. If i am wrong, you may tie me to the whipping post .

3rd August 2022, 11:15 AM	#14
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Thanks all for your considered opinions, The tip is not completely blunt and it would pierce skin with a gentle amount of force behind it. It is a nice piece and I will put it down to early to mid 1800's, It is not what I collect but I enjoy it all the same and happy to have it in my collection. Regards all, Ken

3rd August 2022, 02:44 PM	#17
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 466	Could the tip serve as a marl spike for small cord such as old fishing lines?