Saifs

[dakary]

Hi everybody.

I'm new to the forum. I have, on occasion, posted on the my armoury forums. I have lurked here for a little while and I thought I should sign up since my interests are migrating a bit away from Medieval European arms to Islamic arms. I attribute this to having spent a bit of time living in the Gulf Region. While I was there, I did have a look around at various saif swords but my expertise was lacking (indeed, to the point where there was none to be had!). I also noticed that many of the saifs, while beautiful, were not functional but were extremely ornate decorative pieces, sometimes for use in sword dances at weddings and such.

I have looked on the forums and found some posts somewhat related to my inquiry but not directly answering either. I'm sorry if this has already been addressed.

I've come onto the forum, to reach out and see if there is somebody, or somebodies, who could give me a bit more information about acquiring a functional saif, and in particular, those typical to the gulf region. I'm not sure about a specific time period. My understanding is that the shamshir style saifs are basically ottoman and/or Persian shamshir blades that have been made Arabic through differences in decoration (for example, wire-wrap seems to be common near the top of the handle), as well as handle (and in particular, pommel) shape. I have no idea when that influence occurred and when Arabs, and in particular those around the gulf, started to incorporate this style of blade but it seems to be that it is later than medieval. I'm not necessarily looking for something over the top decorative. I have been made aware of Peserey Handicrafts out of Turkey which is sort of the type of thing I am looking for, but those are obviously Turkish (and/or Persian?) rather than Gulf Arabic.

Thank you very much.

[mariusgmioc]

Welcome to the forum!

The name game is never ending and the opinions are split. Some terms that we use are are generic, some are more specific, some are ethnographically correct, some aren't.

Now with regards to the terms "shamshir" and "saif" I can only tell you my take on it as other forum colleagues may have different opinions. But that's the charm of if as it would be boring if we all agree on everything.

So, in my opinion, shamshirs are characterized mainly by their long, narrow and strongly curved blade of flattened triangular (wedge) cross-section. They can be distinguished further by their hilt into
"Persian shamshirs" (first photo),
"Ottoman shamshirs" (second photo),
"Indian shamshirs" (third photo) and
"Syrian/Arab shamshirs" (fourth photo).

For others, the hilt would be the defining element in naming the sword, so the saber in the second photo would be called "kilij," the one in the third photo would be called "tulwar," and the one in the last photo would be called "saif."

Is this ethnographically correct?!
Not really as in India pretty much all sabers would be called "tulwar," in Turkey pretty much all sabers would be called "kilij" and in the Arab world pretty much all sabers would be called "saif."

However, for me as a collector strictly ethnographic criteria are too vague and imprecise, so for clarity and conciseness I prefer to use more specific ethnographically inspired terms.

[mariusgmioc]

Now, what would I call a "saif" would be a saber with a characteristic Arabic hilt and slightly broader, less curved (than a shamshir), usually imported blade like those in the photos.

You may notice the "saif" in the first photo has a very distinct hilt. These types of saifs are attributed mainly to Yemen, while those in the last two photos are attributed to Syria.

[dakary]

Thanks for that!

Yes, the terminology seems to be pretty muddy! I appreciate the clarification. By your terminology, I would say that what I am looking for is an Arabic (or Syrian) shamshir - or possibly a Persian one. I'm not sure how much variation there is within these, but I'd like it to be something that is appropriate in the Gulf region. I've seen plenty of Indian and Turkish (between these, I'd prefer Turkish), but very lacking in Syrian, Arabian, and Persian. I'm not even sure where to look. It is possible that I'll be back over there at some point (although it isn't up to me nor does it look probable), but even then, I wouldn't know where to look. The stuff around the souqs was stuff made in China or India (and sometimes locally modified/decorated) and stainless steel for use in sword dances. That's not what I'm after, of course. I'm also not looking for an antique. Something new (but the older the style, the better), functional, high quality but not ornate, and preferably by a local(ish) smith. I have no idea if there is such a thing - I'm being pretty specific.

[Battara]

Here is my saif. It was probably made in Hyderabad India and for the Yemeni market.

[dakary]

I do have to add that those Yemini hilts and pommels are really attractive to me too. I think Yemini arms are really nice. I like their jambiyas also. I tried to find one when I was in the Gulf but I just didn't have an eye that would allow me to pick out something worth getting and I wimped out. I probably should have just taken a plunge and gotten something.

[ariel]

sorry

[dakary]

Battara, that is not an antique, is it? If it isn't, could share where you acquired it from? Thanks!

[Battara]

Oh it is antique and even has a pattern welded blade.

Got it in an online auction.

[dakary]

I have another set of related questions (although I am still looking for a good production arab/syrian/persian shamshir/saif and would appreciate any help with that, although there doesn't seem any forthcoming...).

I noticed some S shaped guards on some antiques while I was in the Gulf. They seem to be primarily on Turkish shamshirs though. Was this decorative, or functional? When did they decide to do this (if not from the beginning)? Why is it rarer than straight guards?

Thanks!

[ariel]

S-shaped guard is a feature of regulation Ottoman swords from the second half of 19 century or later. They “borrowed” it from the European sabers as a part of “europeanizing” their military. The same was true about Persia.
Their relative rarity is likely explained by the relaively short time span for the use of bladed weapons.

Tulwar, shamshir, kilij, saif, all of them are “sword”, but in different languages.
How to call swords with a mix of different features?
That depends: Russian ( and, I guess, some other) schools would put emphasis
on the blade. Indeed, it is the working part of any sword. Polish school would emphasize the handle: it defines the matter of wielding the weapon.
Russian historians of weapons would call any sword, with any handle, but with a Persian blade a shamshir.
Polish ones would call a sword with a Persian blade and an Indian handle a tulwar, with a Turkish one a kilij and with an Arabic one a saif.

Intriguingly, a straight indian sword with a firangi or khanda blade but with a tulwar handle would be called a tulwar, but same blades with a basket handle would be firangi and khanda.

I do not think we can be categorical. It is a matter of local tradition and who are we to insist the locals are dead wrong and insist on our clearly european point of view ?

[werecow]

I guess this is as good a time as any for my first post here! I've been lurking for a while.

I too love these three-pronged hilts (and, well, the whole package). They remind me of crowned sea horses somehow. I bought the one below last year at auction. Sorry for the bad lighting. It's almost impossible to get a good picture with my phone somehow.

My only gripe with it is that there is movement between the guard and the blade (and there's a bit of minor movement between the scabbard fittings and the leather that has me somewhat worried that the chape will become detached at some point in the future). If anyone knows how to fasten this kind of hilt without major risk of damage, I'm all ears.

[Nihl]

Originally Posted by ariel

S-shaped guard is a feature of regulation Ottoman swords from the second half of 19 century or later. They “borrowed” it from the European sabers as a part of “europeanizing” their military. The same was true about Persia.
Their relative rarity is likely explained by the relaively short time span for the use of bladed weapons.

Tulwar, shamshir, kilij, saif, all of them are “sword”, but in different languages.
How to call swords with a mix of different features?
That depends: Russian ( and, I guess, some other) schools would put emphasis
on the blade. Indeed, it is the working part of any sword. Polish school would emphasize the handle: it defines the matter of wielding the weapon.
Russian historians of weapons would call any sword, with any handle, but with a Persian blade a shamshir.
Polish ones would call a sword with a Persian blade and an Indian handle a tulwar, with a Turkish one a kilij and with an Arabic one a saif.

Intriguingly, a straight indian sword with a firangi or khanda blade but with a tulwar handle would be called a tulwar, but same blades with a basket handle would be firangi and khanda.

I do not think we can be categorical. It is a matter of local tradition and who are we to insist the locals are dead wrong and insist on our clearly european point of view ?

As someone from what I suppose you might call the "Indian school", wherein indeed mixtures of blade and hilt-types are common, I personally prefer the more comprehensive, albeit probably more pedantic approach of identifying a sword by both the origin point of its blade and hilt.

In other words, to use the photos Marius posted earlier as an example, I'd "name" (describe) each sword as the following:

A persian shamshir; with a local persian blade and hilt.
A turkish shamshir; with a persian blade and a turkish-style hilt.
An indian tulwar; with a persian blade and an indian tulwar hilt.
A syrian shamshir; with a persian blade and a syrian-style hilt.

This is all assuming, ofc, that the swords in the pictures related indeed have actual persian blades on them, and not locally made blades in persian style

Also I'll explain, because I'm sure someone will notice, why I classified the third "shamshir" as a tulwar and not a shamshir. This is because, in this case, I think the hilt type indeed usurps whatever style of swordsmanship the blade type might normally indicate. This is to say that, because of the restrictive, draw cut-centric style of swordsmanship that the tulwar hilt is based around, you cannot reasonably use a shamshir blade mounted on a tulwar hilt like an actual shamshir. Although typical persian shamshirs can be used for draw cuts, shamshir hilts are also usually open, meaning one is able to physically perform maneuvers other than just draw cuts, unlike tulwars.

[ariel]

Nihl classified sabers according to the Polish school despite officially defining himself as belonging to the Indian one: by the handle:-) And I agree with him 100%.

Historically, all of them stem from South-Central Asian Nomadic tribal curve-bladed swords (sabers).
The earliest contact of any foreign military with them occured in the late 7rh century, when Khazars ( Turkic tribe occupying area berween Caspian Sea and Dniepr river/ Crimea, current proper Ukraine) fought with the Arab inviders trying to enter Europe through the Derbent Pass.

Subsequently, over the next couple of centuries victorious Arabs passed this pattern to the Persians, Khwarizmians, Selcuks, North -Africans Babur brought it to North India whence they spread all over the subcontinent. Mongols in the 13 century broughr it to Eastern Europe.
It became the most frequent blade pattern all over the World down to the current parade swords.

Every country, every ethnicity gave it its local name, that can be easily translated into a generic word “sword”. Arabs call it saif, Persians and Afghanis shamshir, Ottomans kilij, Uzbeks and Tajiks call it Klych, Indians call it Talwar, Poles - Szabla. The blades differ only mildly, some are wider, some are slender, they have different curvatures, some habe yelman, some have fullers etc. That’s all. In each country one could find blades with and without these features.

But the real ethnic difference is in their furniture, mostly in their handles. That is how we know that this one is Moroccan, that one -Indian, those are South Aravian, North Aravian, Persian etc.

The one we are discussing is a hybrid of several styles: it has generic Persian blade, but what pinpoints it to its origin is the Indian Baluch handle with its characteristic pommel and with the Omani silver knot on it.

That’s why I did not include Persian blade as a defining component: they were used all over the Islamic world and the entire Eastern Europe.

[Nihl]

Originally Posted by ariel

Nihl classified sabers according to the Polish school despite officially defining himself as belonging to the Indian one: by the handle:-)

Ariel, with all due respect, please do not tell me how I classify things. I found that your comment there rather rubbed me the wrong way.

I think perhaps my system might simply be too nuanced for you; you'll note that I, like I said I did, listed out both the hilt and blade origin when defining each sword, with the exception of the tulwar, for reasons I described in my previous post. Perhaps the shorthand description I gave of each sword (before the semicolon) confused you, but I think even then I was true to my word.

I gave brief descriptions like "turkish shamshir" and "syrian shamshir", which I think is accurate to my beliefs (or my "school"). If I cared more about the hilt, then I would not have included the term "shamshir", which describes the blade. Rather, I would have said "turkish kilij" and "syrian saif". If I had cared more about the blades, then I simply would have described all of them as just shamshirs. The tulwar, like I already said, I feel I have justified in my previous post, but perhaps I should have said "an indian tulwar with a persian shamshir blade" if I had known someone was going to give my post such a vapid analysis. I wanted to keep things brief as I do have a tendency to ramble otherwise.

[ariel]

Nihl,

I am sorry you took my comments the way you did. No ill intent was meant. You can classify objects any way you wish, but in fact your definitions of all of them fully coincided with the so-called " Polish system", i.e. primacy of the hilt, even in the case of a saber with Persian blade and Indian handle. That's all. There is nothing personal.

Yes, I know that Elgood also stressed separate descriptions of blade and hit. But in his case it was done with purely Indian objects composed of parts of different ages.

There are many ways how to name "composite" swords: Fiegel used the blade as a determining factor, Polish school uses the hilt, and there is no easy way to sum up every feature to describe swords belonging to a specific area but incorporating features/parts of multiple origin ( the Baluch/Omani saber is an example, likely because of long-standing tight relations of both geographic areas).

It is immaterial what kind of moniker we give to a sword as long as our description of its construction is openly listed. In any case, the contemporaneous local users most likely called them by their own local monikers. Throughout the Arab world all Indian tulwars, Moroccan nimchas and Turkish Kilijes were just " saifs", and virtually identical janbiyas were janbiyas in Yemen, but khanjars in Oman and had multiple different names in Aravia depending on the tribe. What we call Pulwar in our lingo, was just a shamshir for the Afghanis. We are not carrying those swords into battle and our lives do not depend on them. We are just collectors and our only law of the land is how to describe them in the most accurate way comprehensible to our colleagues.

And, as we know, there are at least 9 ways to skin the cat:-)

Peace?