Austrian hussar sabre for ID

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2021, 12:17 AM

I am curious about the reference to Wagner.
My copy "Cut & Thrust Weapons" (Prague, 1967) shows virtually this exact saber among Austrian swords as Hungarian mid 18th c. and with Pottenstein as place of manufacture.
Here I would note that Pottenstein seems to be a judicial district, and electoral region in Bavaria. It is often confusing as swords often, if not typically have the arms of Hungary, but clearly this was Austro-Hungary, the Holy Roman Empire.
While it seems possible there were blade makers at Pottenstein, it seems more likely this was where the saber was 'outfitted'.

It is interesting that this example is silver metal, the book example is brass.

The use of the Madonna falls into place with many of the religious and neo-classic themes popular in Hungary and East European regions.
What is most curious in the Madonna depiction is that the figure is standing on the face of the 'man in the moon' which is a common depiction in the cosmology of many European blades. The image of this moon also shows the line along the back of the head which represents a rostrum, as depicted in the moons used in Spain for espaderos del rey.

In references on Hungarian arms I have read it is noted that there was a predeliction for symbolic representation on arms in this period. In Poland there was a use of representations of important rulers, and those particular swords were termed in accord with the figure on the blade. For example 'zygmuntowka' (King Sigismund); 'batorowka' (King Stephen Bathory).

JT88 · 17th October 2021, 12:54 AM

There is scarce information on Pottenstein, I notice a wide difference in the signatures I've found. It does seem to be a district in Austria that exported a variety of swords to Vienna.

I can post the single page of information from the book I posted, it is not all that different than what is in Wagner.

Victrix · 17th October 2021, 10:55 AM

In the 18thC Austria manufactured sword blades mainly in Pottenstein and Weiz. Melchior Steiner started production of sword blades in Pottenstein (lower Austria) in 1765. He successfully competed with foreign imports on price and quality. On his death in 1786, his nephew Melchior Ritter von Steiner took over the arms factory which did well and became the market leader in Austria. The factory was converted into a metal and machinery goods manufacturer in 1828.

I read somewhere that gild/brass decorations on uniforms and arms in Austria-Hungary was reserved for the Crown. Silver plated hussar sabres were used by private palace and castle guards (including ceremonial duties). The Austro-Hungarian empire contained some large estates.

Below text is from Das industrielle Erbe Niederösterreichs: Geschichte, Technik, Architektur (2006) by Gerhard A Stadler.

JT88 · 17th October 2021, 01:43 PM

Great info Victrix! Clearly have done your research since your first post. My only question would be the Pottenstein blades marked prior to 1760, such as the one on the first page.

Do you know where you read about the reservation of the gilding for palace guard/royalty?

Cheers

Victrix · 17th October 2021, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT88

Great info Victrix! Clearly have done your research since your first post. My only question would be the Pottenstein blades marked prior to 1760, such as the one on the first page.

Do you know where you read about the reservation of the gilding for palace guard/royalty?

Cheers

There would be no Pottenstein blades marked as such prior to 1765 as the previous factory was based in Sollenau (see text).

The gilding would be reserved for Army officers, not private estate guards. Not sure where I got that from, so unconfirmed. Hussar regiments were recognized from uniform colours and it’s possible some used gilding and others used silver (so also unconfirmed).

JT88 · 17th October 2021, 02:25 PM

Check the first page there’s one pictured there marked 1749.

Have you seen any other with silver hardware? It’s not plated, my guess from its polishing characteristics is that it is low grade silver. I haven’t been able to find another example that is not brass.

corrado26 · 17th October 2021, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Melchior Steiner started production of sword blades in Pottenstein (lower Austria) in 1765.

A production start at Pottenstein in 1765 is IMHO impossible because Melchior Steiner was baptised not before novembre 21. 1762. But as there are sabres with the Pottenstein signature of the year 1749, the information given with 1765 must be wrong.

Victrix · 17th October 2021, 04:38 PM

Maybe it’s the Bavarian Pottenstein

Note that there is a senior and a junior Melchior Steiner (see the text). The factory was started by the uncle and continued with the nephew (knighted) according to the sources. It’s possible that there was some blade production in Pottenstein at a smaller level before the factory, but I’m not aware of this. The location seems to have been very good. It’s rare to find dated blades so it might be an artesenal example. Also not sure how exact the dating is as it was a long time ago now.

JT88 · 17th October 2021, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

A production start at Pottenstein in 1765 is IMHO impossible because Melchior Steiner was baptised not before novembre 21. 1762. But as there are sabres with the Pottenstein signature of the year 1749, the information given with 1765 must be wrong.

Possible as his source says that it began with his uncle or father. What’s the earliest sample anyone has seen of a Pottenstein blade?

Are you able to tell me any more about my sample? Or where you’ve found information? The two books I listed are the only I’ve found thus far.

The Pottenstein blades seem far rarer than either the Fringian or Solingen examples. Treasures

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2021, 06:54 PM

This is outstanding information Victrix! and thank you for sharing the reference data. I had found that Pottenstein was mostly an administrative term for the town and castle which was in Bavaria, or an electorate (the geo political complexity of these areas and in the Holy Roman Empire is maddening!)
Regardless, it does make sense that there was some sort of arsenal and manufacturing activity there.
I believe it was not until 1811 that the region fell into Bavarian designation.

It is interesting that these Austrian swords typically had Hungarian arms on the blades, presumably because of the suzerainty of the Holy Roman rule (Austro-Hungary).

In studying the swords of these regions, it is often noted in references on Polish swords and East European, as per Ostrowski (1979) that Hungary, if there was any blade production at all, was minimal, and records there show orders for blades from Styria and Italy mostly.

In Wagner, (p.350) the detail on a saber listed as that of a Pandour officer , by swordsmith Mairschoffer I , Passau, anno 1747.
The illustration shows the blade as 'Hungarian' and having a 'notch' near the point.
The illustration here from Konipsky & Moudry (1991) is the same.

My example of this type saber has the Hungarian arms but is not marked as to maker, and does have the same notch.
I personally do not think these notches have a utilitarian purpose, but perhaps something more symbolic. In the time researching these notches, there have been no satisfactory explanations to this curious feature on many Austrian swords.

Wagner states it was to worsen wounds, however, despite sounding viable, the truth of the matter is from what I found, this may cause the weapon to become lodged, thus disarming the user. Also, how would this apply to such a notch on the blade back of a saber? a cutting weapon.

Is such 'symbolic' notching feasible? With the Landsknechts, I had read (passim) that they wore clothing that was deliberately torn and tattered to represent 'battled' garments of their predecessors in combat. Notches were placed in firearms as a kind of tally at times (though no evidence supports western gunfighters doing this in reality) .

I did find evidence of a few cases of this 'notching' with French hussars of the period through contacts in France, but this information does not have confirmation.

Interested Party · 17th October 2021, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

My example of this type saber has the Hungarian arms but is not marked as to maker, and does have the same notch.
I personally do not think these notches have a utilitarian purpose, but perhaps something more symbolic. In the time researching these notches, there have been no satisfactory explanations to this curious feature on many Austrian swords.

Wagner states it was to worsen wounds, however, despite sounding viable, the truth of the matter is from what I found, this may cause the weapon to become lodged, thus disarming the user. Also, how would this apply to such a notch on the blade back of a saber? a cutting weapon.

Maybe the notch was a perceived advantage when used in a falso dritto or a montante sotto mano? The second cut if would tend to gut or emasculate an unarmored opponent. At the top of the stroke it could get to the face and eyes of an overextended opponent. With shorter blades it has been taught when the edge is just above eye level and move your blade down your opponent again. I don't know if these sabers have that kind of agility. The notches on cane cutters were used to bring an object to you. Either way it would appear to me to have created a natural place for the point to snap.

Victrix · 17th October 2021, 09:50 PM

Hi Jim, Thank you so much for posting photos of your interesting pandour sword! In fact itÂ’s the first time I see what it really looks like, as I had only seen WagnerÂ’s drawing of it before. ItÂ’s a very interesting sword for what was an interesting corps to say the least. ItÂ’s amazing that it also has the curious notch. I noticed that your blade appears to have a second fuller near the back towards the tip, which is also unusual.

The Habsburg empire was a Â”HausmachtÂ” or a dynastic power consisting of a number of separate countries united by their common crowned head which was the Kaiser: By the Grace of God Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary and Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia, Lodomeria and Illyria; King of Jerusalem, etc. So the Kaiser was Emperor of Austria as well as king of all these other lands in a personal capacity. When he was removed from the throne after WWI (he never formally abdicated) the empire naturally disintegrated. There was an institution which was the Imperial and Royal Army (kaiserlich und kÃ¶niglich) which operated in the whole empire, and then there were national armies like the Royal Hungarian Home Guard (Honved) which existed in parallel. Famous corps like the hussars and pandours originated from the Hungarian lands (pre WWI borders) where they resisted Ottoman expansion into Europe. So they often used local Hungarian insignia rather than the Imperial Austro (-Hungarian) ones on their uniforms, arms, flags etc. The imperial army probably looked down at them as not much better than brigands, but they impressed the rest of Europe when Austria used them in the 30 year war and onwards. The Holy Roman Empire was just a loose confederation of many German states, of which Austria was one.

Hungary was almost annihilated in the Ottoman wars and much of its territory devastated and occupied. So itÂ’s not strange that there wasnÂ’t much manufacturing going on in those war torn lands. I have read that there was some production of blades in what is now Slovakia (part of Hungary pre-WWI) which has mountains and iron ore. But as you mention, much was imported.

In terms of the notch on the blade I wouldnÂ’t be surprised if its function was indeed what Wagner stated. The war against the Ottomans was desperate and quite cruel. Many of the soldiers stationed along the frontline in what was termed the Military Frontier were either defending their homes and families there, or were displaced refugees from lands already occupied by the Ottomans. So weapons were often designed to inflict as much physical harm as possible which is reflected in their dimensions and designs. There may have been certain bravado involved as well of course. As an example I would mention CorradoÂ’s Pottenstein sabre which I noticed has an extremely wide blade (almost exaggerated) which I know was popular amongst the Slavic troops in the Military Frontier (located in pre-WWI borders Hungary) and probably local Hungarian troops as well. It positively looks like a meat cleaver! With regards to Austro-Hungarian silver sabres they do appear from time to time in auctions and seem to have had some sort of ceremonial function as they are obviously decorated at an expense greater than what was normal.

17th October 2021, 12:17 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,762	I am curious about the reference to Wagner. My copy "Cut & Thrust Weapons" (Prague, 1967) shows virtually this exact saber among Austrian swords as Hungarian mid 18th c. and with Pottenstein as place of manufacture. Here I would note that Pottenstein seems to be a judicial district, and electoral region in Bavaria. It is often confusing as swords often, if not typically have the arms of Hungary, but clearly this was Austro-Hungary, the Holy Roman Empire. While it seems possible there were blade makers at Pottenstein, it seems more likely this was where the saber was 'outfitted'. It is interesting that this example is silver metal, the book example is brass. The use of the Madonna falls into place with many of the religious and neo-classic themes popular in Hungary and East European regions. What is most curious in the Madonna depiction is that the figure is standing on the face of the 'man in the moon' which is a common depiction in the cosmology of many European blades. The image of this moon also shows the line along the back of the head which represents a rostrum, as depicted in the moons used in Spain for espaderos del rey. In references on Hungarian arms I have read it is noted that there was a predeliction for symbolic representation on arms in this period. In Poland there was a use of representations of important rulers, and those particular swords were termed in accord with the figure on the blade. For example 'zygmuntowka' (King Sigismund); 'batorowka' (King Stephen Bathory). Attached Images

17th October 2021, 10:55 AM	#3
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 770	In the 18thC Austria manufactured sword blades mainly in Pottenstein and Weiz. Melchior Steiner started production of sword blades in Pottenstein (lower Austria) in 1765. He successfully competed with foreign imports on price and quality. On his death in 1786, his nephew Melchior Ritter von Steiner took over the arms factory which did well and became the market leader in Austria. The factory was converted into a metal and machinery goods manufacturer in 1828. I read somewhere that gild/brass decorations on uniforms and arms in Austria-Hungary was reserved for the Crown. Silver plated hussar sabres were used by private palace and castle guards (including ceremonial duties). The Austro-Hungarian empire contained some large estates. Below text is from Das industrielle Erbe Niederösterreichs: Geschichte, Technik, Architektur (2006) by Gerhard A Stadler. Attached Images

17th October 2021, 02:25 PM	#6
JT88 Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 52	Check the first page there’s one pictured there marked 1749. Have you seen any other with silver hardware? It’s not plated, my guess from its polishing characteristics is that it is low grade silver. I haven’t been able to find another example that is not brass. Last edited by JT88; 17th October 2021 at 02:37 PM.

17th October 2021, 06:54 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,762	This is outstanding information Victrix! and thank you for sharing the reference data. I had found that Pottenstein was mostly an administrative term for the town and castle which was in Bavaria, or an electorate (the geo political complexity of these areas and in the Holy Roman Empire is maddening!) Regardless, it does make sense that there was some sort of arsenal and manufacturing activity there. I believe it was not until 1811 that the region fell into Bavarian designation. It is interesting that these Austrian swords typically had Hungarian arms on the blades, presumably because of the suzerainty of the Holy Roman rule (Austro-Hungary). In studying the swords of these regions, it is often noted in references on Polish swords and East European, as per Ostrowski (1979) that Hungary, if there was any blade production at all, was minimal, and records there show orders for blades from Styria and Italy mostly. In Wagner, (p.350) the detail on a saber listed as that of a Pandour officer , by swordsmith Mairschoffer I , Passau, anno 1747. The illustration shows the blade as 'Hungarian' and having a 'notch' near the point. The illustration here from Konipsky & Moudry (1991) is the same. My example of this type saber has the Hungarian arms but is not marked as to maker, and does have the same notch. I personally do not think these notches have a utilitarian purpose, but perhaps something more symbolic. In the time researching these notches, there have been no satisfactory explanations to this curious feature on many Austrian swords. Wagner states it was to worsen wounds, however, despite sounding viable, the truth of the matter is from what I found, this may cause the weapon to become lodged, thus disarming the user. Also, how would this apply to such a notch on the blade back of a saber? a cutting weapon. Is such 'symbolic' notching feasible? With the Landsknechts, I had read (passim) that they wore clothing that was deliberately torn and tattered to represent 'battled' garments of their predecessors in combat. Notches were placed in firearms as a kind of tally at times (though no evidence supports western gunfighters doing this in reality) . I did find evidence of a few cases of this 'notching' with French hussars of the period through contacts in France, but this information does not have confirmation. Attached Images

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17th October 2021, 12:54 AM	#2
JT88 Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 52	There is scarce information on Pottenstein, I notice a wide difference in the signatures I've found. It does seem to be a district in Austria that exported a variety of swords to Vienna. I can post the single page of information from the book I posted, it is not all that different than what is in Wagner.

17th October 2021, 01:43 PM	#4
JT88 Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 52	Great info Victrix! Clearly have done your research since your first post. My only question would be the Pottenstein blades marked prior to 1760, such as the one on the first page. Do you know where you read about the reservation of the gilding for palace guard/royalty? Cheers

17th October 2021, 04:38 PM	#8
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 770	Maybe it’s the Bavarian Pottenstein Note that there is a senior and a junior Melchior Steiner (see the text). The factory was started by the uncle and continued with the nephew (knighted) according to the sources. It’s possible that there was some blade production in Pottenstein at a smaller level before the factory, but I’m not aware of this. The location seems to have been very good. It’s rare to find dated blades so it might be an artesenal example. Also not sure how exact the dating is as it was a long time ago now.

17th October 2021, 09:50 PM	#12
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 770	Hi Jim, Thank you so much for posting photos of your interesting pandour sword! In fact itÂ’s the first time I see what it really looks like, as I had only seen WagnerÂ’s drawing of it before. ItÂ’s a very interesting sword for what was an interesting corps to say the least. ItÂ’s amazing that it also has the curious notch. I noticed that your blade appears to have a second fuller near the back towards the tip, which is also unusual. The Habsburg empire was a Â”HausmachtÂ” or a dynastic power consisting of a number of separate countries united by their common crowned head which was the Kaiser: By the Grace of God Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary and Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia, Lodomeria and Illyria; King of Jerusalem, etc. So the Kaiser was Emperor of Austria as well as king of all these other lands in a personal capacity. When he was removed from the throne after WWI (he never formally abdicated) the empire naturally disintegrated. There was an institution which was the Imperial and Royal Army (kaiserlich und kÃ¶niglich) which operated in the whole empire, and then there were national armies like the Royal Hungarian Home Guard (Honved) which existed in parallel. Famous corps like the hussars and pandours originated from the Hungarian lands (pre WWI borders) where they resisted Ottoman expansion into Europe. So they often used local Hungarian insignia rather than the Imperial Austro (-Hungarian) ones on their uniforms, arms, flags etc. The imperial army probably looked down at them as not much better than brigands, but they impressed the rest of Europe when Austria used them in the 30 year war and onwards. The Holy Roman Empire was just a loose confederation of many German states, of which Austria was one. Hungary was almost annihilated in the Ottoman wars and much of its territory devastated and occupied. So itÂ’s not strange that there wasnÂ’t much manufacturing going on in those war torn lands. I have read that there was some production of blades in what is now Slovakia (part of Hungary pre-WWI) which has mountains and iron ore. But as you mention, much was imported. In terms of the notch on the blade I wouldnÂ’t be surprised if its function was indeed what Wagner stated. The war against the Ottomans was desperate and quite cruel. Many of the soldiers stationed along the frontline in what was termed the Military Frontier were either defending their homes and families there, or were displaced refugees from lands already occupied by the Ottomans. So weapons were often designed to inflict as much physical harm as possible which is reflected in their dimensions and designs. There may have been certain bravado involved as well of course. As an example I would mention CorradoÂ’s Pottenstein sabre which I noticed has an extremely wide blade (almost exaggerated) which I know was popular amongst the Slavic troops in the Military Frontier (located in pre-WWI borders Hungary) and probably local Hungarian troops as well. It positively looks like a meat cleaver! With regards to Austro-Hungarian silver sabres they do appear from time to time in auctions and seem to have had some sort of ceremonial function as they are obviously decorated at an expense greater than what was normal.