A saber of unknown origin and age

fernando · 6th October 2021, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

... My quick search has not brought more informations about that maker, except for a "John Morell & Co. - since 1827" on an antique folding knife...

Mind you Patrick, that folding knife is a marketing gift from the meat processor John Morrel ... not Morell; has nothing to do with your sword.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

... has few chips here and there but that could have been kids playing with it.

I appreciate such honest and realistic assumption; in general, folks like to think that chips are signs of battle; maybe one in a thousand, i would guess

.. I recall, when in my youth, helping to vandalize a friend's grandfather military sabre.

awdaniec666 · 6th October 2021, 01:19 PM

Thank you Fernando. Did you hear about blunt sabers and can tell me something about this?
Keeping in mind my sabers size, the gilding and the still (for children) dangerous point I wouldnt think that this is something for a child. Was there a different view on safety back then?

fernando · 6th October 2021, 01:27 PM

I wouldn't think the explanation for this blade being blunt is due to it being a child sword; the reason must reside elsewhere. Some of our members could help to clarify this.

Victrix · 6th October 2021, 04:15 PM

I have a pallasch from an ancestor who was an officer in the Kungliga Norrlands Dragoner in early 20thC which is unsharpened. I believe the reason for this is that the swords were only sharpened for war, and Sweden was luckily not involved in wars since the days of Napoleon. Had Sweden been involved in war and my ancestor called into the field for war service, then I believe the sword would have been sharpened. There are 19th Swedish swords marked Morell & Co. I think they may have been cutlers?

fernando · 6th October 2021, 05:44 PM

A rather plausible explanation, no doubt

.
And yes, that Morell & Co. stamp looks like the cutler's type, "& Co." and all.

awdaniec666 · 6th October 2021, 07:46 PM

I would like to throw the question into the room: How sharp are battle-ready but unsharpened blades, like right after forging it into its final form.
I dont have this kind of knowledge. What makes me wonder is that for my understanding that blade (edge and tip) we are talking about is rather round-dull. Even so, that it occurs to me that you have to put extra work to create that round edge, but thats a question for a bladesmith which I cannot answer.
It seems to me that you would have to take away a lot of steel until you finally get your edge to a degree of at least 45°. Of course depending on the angle you want the edge to be in, which can vary because of different reasons.
I attach another image with the edge on the blades last third with a 1 euro cent coin for comparison. I think the coin is 1 mm thick. Keep in mind the back is a thick "pipe" of 5 mm, so the edge looks even thinner in comparison.

Bryce · 7th October 2021, 04:03 AM

G'day Patrick,
I can only comment from a British swords perspective, but like Victrix said, British swords were only sharpened when the owner left for active service. The type of edge they had prior to sharpening varies greatly depending on the sword. Here is an example in my collection circa 1814 which has a pipe-back blade similar to yours. The forward half of the blade was beautifully sharpened (probably only once), while the half closest to the hilt was left unsharpened. Sharp on top and unsharpened bottom.
Cheers,
Bryce

awdaniec666 · 7th October 2021, 11:13 AM

Hey Bryce, thanks for sharing that.

6th October 2021, 07:46 PM	#6
awdaniec666 Member Join Date: May 2021 Location: Central Europe Posts: 174	I would like to throw the question into the room: How sharp are battle-ready but unsharpened blades, like right after forging it into its final form. I dont have this kind of knowledge. What makes me wonder is that for my understanding that blade (edge and tip) we are talking about is rather round-dull. Even so, that it occurs to me that you have to put extra work to create that round edge, but thats a question for a bladesmith which I cannot answer. It seems to me that you would have to take away a lot of steel until you finally get your edge to a degree of at least 45°. Of course depending on the angle you want the edge to be in, which can vary because of different reasons. I attach another image with the edge on the blades last third with a 1 euro cent coin for comparison. I think the coin is 1 mm thick. Keep in mind the back is a thick "pipe" of 5 mm, so the edge looks even thinner in comparison. Attached Images

7th October 2021, 04:03 AM	#7
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 187	G'day Patrick, I can only comment from a British swords perspective, but like Victrix said, British swords were only sharpened when the owner left for active service. The type of edge they had prior to sharpening varies greatly depending on the sword. Here is an example in my collection circa 1814 which has a pipe-back blade similar to yours. The forward half of the blade was beautifully sharpened (probably only once), while the half closest to the hilt was left unsharpened. Sharp on top and unsharpened bottom. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

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6th October 2021, 01:19 PM	#2
awdaniec666 Member Join Date: May 2021 Location: Central Europe Posts: 174	Thank you Fernando. Did you hear about blunt sabers and can tell me something about this? Keeping in mind my sabers size, the gilding and the still (for children) dangerous point I wouldnt think that this is something for a child. Was there a different view on safety back then?

6th October 2021, 01:27 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I wouldn't think the explanation for this blade being blunt is due to it being a child sword; the reason must reside elsewhere. Some of our members could help to clarify this.

6th October 2021, 04:15 PM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	I have a pallasch from an ancestor who was an officer in the Kungliga Norrlands Dragoner in early 20thC which is unsharpened. I believe the reason for this is that the swords were only sharpened for war, and Sweden was luckily not involved in wars since the days of Napoleon. Had Sweden been involved in war and my ancestor called into the field for war service, then I believe the sword would have been sharpened. There are 19th Swedish swords marked Morell & Co. I think they may have been cutlers?

6th October 2021, 05:44 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A rather plausible explanation, no doubt . And yes, that Morell & Co. stamp looks like the cutler's type, "& Co." and all.

7th October 2021, 11:13 AM	#8
awdaniec666 Member Join Date: May 2021 Location: Central Europe Posts: 174	Hey Bryce, thanks for sharing that.