![]() |
![]() |
#1 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 108
|
![]()
This pole harm, from the qing dinasty was used by the chinese imperial army infantry to take down cavalry enemies from their horses. Measuring 220 cms would be a fantastic weapon, does anybody know of images/video of this kind of weapon being used ? Maybe some chinese movie ? would like to know more information.
Tks |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
|
![]()
As far as I am aware these were used by civilians, and were not a military pattern. They have an equivalent in 16th-17th cent. Europe, where they were commonly known as demilune or "half moon". There is a Spanish example in the Metropolitan Museum of Art's collection.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
Philip, do you recall the key word/s to locate such example at the Met ?
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
Bruno, do you mean to say that the term 'Gekken' is the name of this weapon ?
Apparently this is (also ?) the name of some form of Fencing art. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gJWs4z5nfA . |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 108
|
![]() Quote:
https://issuu.com/moseleyroadinc/doc...onry_lowres/20 From my understading gekken means "half moon" in chinese, but there is litle information about this in english, there must exist in chinese! BV |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 108
|
![]() Quote:
I think the civil model you are talking about is a diferent and its usualy refered as the "Monk’s Spade", it has the half moon design but is smaller and very sharp, its also less well contructed that this one, this one is very solid, big and the main objective is not to cut but take down enemies from horses. Some pictures of the "monks spade" |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
But i may be wrong, of course. . Last edited by fernando; 15th January 2021 at 01:03 PM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 108
|
![]() Quote:
What i know from consulting some old chinese books and by watching the draws (since i dont read chinese) is that this is indeed a imperial army weapon that is reported to exist at least since the ming dinasty, ofcourse my example is not ming, its certain qing dinasty. Regards, BV |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
Those pictures are curious, as the Monks device is supposed to have a half moon in one end and a spade (shovel, pá in Portuguese) in the other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk%27s_spade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Aag-GTFtI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKWHoVRKVM8 But then, i may be wrong again. . |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 108
|
![]()
In the "Wubei Zhi" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wubei_Zhi) there is a reference to this kind of weapon, but this book was done in 1621 and patterns and names change with time, but this is clear indication that the imperial army use this kind of weapons.
There is also a reference to the "spade", that as said earlier and pointed by Fernando in the monks version usualy has a shovel. We can clearly see that these are 2 diferent weapons, one acts more like a cutter and other is a long pole arm, wich i believe has used to go against cavarly enemies, but this is a subject open to discussion and this is only my humble opinion by reading and seeing the very few documents i found. BV |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
An interesting blog; and apparently one with significant knowledge.
https://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.c...t=161069358338. (scroll down to spades). . |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
|
![]() Quote:
1. The word is Japanese and is literally "moon sword". 2. In Chinese the label "sword" is never applied to these weapons, they are usually regarded as a form of "spade" (chan ) and the common term is yuechan or moon spade. 2a. In Chinese usage, "sword"(jian) belong in their own class, double edged and straight. (the Japanese ken and Vietnamese kiem are the same word.) Curved single edged blades (like sabers) are in the class dao , (literally, knives). The Japanese word tô means the same thing. In the medieval dynasties there was some blurring as applied to some polearm heads, but curved blades of any kind were never jian. 3. The weapon itself is not characteristic of Japan's martial arts tradition though it may have seen limited use in Okinawa which was at one time closely linked to China politically and culturally. So Fernando, I tend to agree that gekken probably relates to some Japanese system of fencing. Last edited by Philip; 15th January 2021 at 07:39 PM. Reason: clarification |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 368
|
![]()
https://www.museodelprado.es/colecci...0-9ce631cd5382 In the upper left corner of the picture there is a very interesting Spanish or Neopolitan pole weapon.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
|
![]() Quote:
We don't see the huge variety of very specialized pole weapons in later works like the 18th cent. Huangchao Liqi Tushi compiled at the direction of the Qing court, which is a catalog of regulation patterns of all the material accouterments of imperial, civil, and military activity as of 1759. I don't recall seeing spades among the lineup of spears and shaft weapons. The 16th cent. books on military tactics and training by the Ming general Qi Jiguang have detailed discussion of arms and their deployment, and demilunes were not included. Now it is true that Qi incorporated forces recruited from monasteries in the campaigns against coastal pirates, but their combat skills and weapons were separate from what he prescribed for the regular military units he was in the process of reforming. Discussion of the weapon is also absent in the late 18th cent. Korean compilation of combat arts, the Muye Dobo Tongji which is heavily indebted to Ming and Qing precedents. In China and Korea, the spear was considered "king of weapons" on the battlefield. The demilune was certainly useful in specialized contexts, but in the big picture of military operations, versatility and general utility were far more important. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
|
![]() Quote:
Thank you, the Met example is practically identical to the one in this painting. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
![]() (COMBATE DE MUJERES, by José de Ribera, 1636). . |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|