Caucasian Kindjal for comment

[Gavin Nugent]

Another nice find, I think anyway. Ex Christies Australia, I think the hilt and scabbard are handworked silver with neilo to the front, a very strong double edged blade with a needle point that unforunately has light pitting at the tip. Any help with age etc would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

As I am delving further into the unknown for me, upon further examination the exterior metal in not actually silver...again I think...it appears to be some sort of white base metal? Can anyone shed any light on the construction of these knives please?

thanks

Gav

[fernando]

White(ned) brass or German silver ?
Does the totally plain back side reveal this is a modern replica ?
Let's see what the experts say about it.
Fernando

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Fernando,

I too want to here what the experts have to say about this piece. The piece as a whole has some beautiful age to it and some gorgeous old world craftsmanship to it too. The blade under close viewing has some lovely forgings laminations and is razor sharp after a couple of swipes along a sharpening steel.

The zig zag borders found around the "floral" scrolling and chasing shows remnants or a red substance in places too

Anyone here have any more exacting ideas, I believe it to be somewhere between 1850 and 1900.

regards

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Here are some more photos of the craftsmanship.

regards

Gav

[Jeff Pringle]

Gav,
I apologize in advance for disagreeing with your use of the word, and I don’t mean to cast aspersions on your kindjal which looks much better than most I’ve seen, but I’m afraid you are overly generous in calling that ‘craftsmanship,’ especially of the old world variety; have a look at the links below and see if you don’t agree that a slight change in the final consonant might be in order:
Silver/niello kindjals, which display varying degrees of craftsmanship, but definitely some care in their manufacture:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1728
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2377
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1150

[Gavin Nugent]

No need for apologies Jeff.

They certainly are great examples of Kindjals shown in Oriental Arms.

What would your experinece say about this piece though? Photographic comparisons are good and well, but alas, what can you tell me about this piece and of it's particular style and construction?

If it is not craftsmanship, what is it???

regards

Gav

[Jeff Pringle]

Well, it is as if they still had the workshop set up, the materials and tools at hand, and a basic knowledge of the techniques involved, but some how the desire or ability to do the work well had left the building. Note the choppy feel of the engraving, the uneven, ‘hacked-in’ look to it and the niello, miscuts and poor stops and starts everywhere; the lack of definition between the foreground and background; uneven depth of the background and lack of care in background texture – it is as if the master of the shop had died unexpectedly and a first or second year apprentice was left in charge, but he had a drinking problem and a hot date set up that evening so he was really just not paying attention…or maybe it is just the last gasp of a dying tradition, when even those who had devoted their lives to it had finally realized the ultimate futility of hand work in the machine age?

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Jeff, thanks for the humour, sad and of no help with further identification, but funny.

In this age I find that people seem to find it so easy to criticise with out offering anything of worth, from my experience in all continents with all arms makers and embellishers of the weapons accruements there is a vast varying degree of design and execution of skill but the functionality weapons remains the same.

If you were a craftsman and I came to you and said I had $100 dollars to commission a piece, you would not invest a $1000 worth of effort would you?
I am sure there are others here who can actually offer up information about this item that are entirely factual, where we all as collectors can learn.

I await with interest further input from those in the know as I want to learn from this piece not suffer unsubstantiated negative comments, if you think this was made in 1980 and is of no value, tell me and substantiate it, other, save you fingers.

regards

Gav

[ALEX]

Gav and all, I totally agree with Jeff !!!
I understand your desire to learn the facts and see direct references. Hovewer, the general feeling about the item is very crucial factor, and it comes only with experience of handling, comparing and studying them. What Jeff has said makes lots of sense - he speaks out of experience, and it aint's humor in any way! The "old workmanship" is hard to describe in words - one has to simply "feel" it. Your kindjal lacks it indeed. The last picture, for example, shows zigzag pattern which id done by using a simple screw-driver; this "quicky" method is still used nowadays, and is sign of "low" quality production, just as the pattern being unaccurately traced throughout. I even can tell the tools being used were dull, and of low grade:-). As you said - if one invests $100 to produce it - it'll not look like $1000, and this is what it is
Also, Jeff provided an honest opinion and substantial references - and he deserves little more respect!

[Henk]

Gav,

I completely agree with Jeff and absolutely with Alex. Although this is not my field, I can see what Jeff and Alex are saying. Your reaction to Jeff is wrong.
Don't put your head in the sand and look again to the pictures of the Oriental Arms Kindjals, Jeff showed you. The differences are obvious and has nothing to do with a $100 or $1000 production.

Don't pour out your disapointment on your fellow forummembers when something is not what you hoped for.

[ward]

Gav you have to understand. I have handled thousands of pieces over the years and so have some of the other members. Half the time you can just give a quick look and tell if a piece is realitively new. Jeff gave you a well thought out very polite opinion. Your piece looks late 20th century the reasons given before seem correct. The work is sloppy and done as quickly as possible. The niello is poorly applied. You see a lot of this coming out of turkey. The piece is what it is. You have to be critical on pieces it is the only way you learn the difference between quality pieces and tourist and reproduction pieces.

[ariel]

i am coming late on it, but regretfully I have to agree with Ward and the rest.
Although this is of a much better quality than the " last week" mass produced stamped monstrosities from Georgia, one cannot even think about " old world craftsmanship". I am surprised that Christie's even took it.
This is a hand-made, one of a kind, low quality, apprentice-level job. The metalwork is poor both artistically and technically. i do not know whether an old blade was used ( they do it often), but the mounts are below par. This level of performance was not acceptable in the 19th-beg. of 20th centuries. Together with the absence of any markings, I would agree with the " end of 20th cen." dating.
This is not a judgement on you personally; this is a judgement on the kindjal.
It is perfectly adequate to defend one's sister's honor, but as as example of a Caucasian tradition it leaves much behind.
Sorry.

[RSWORD]

I have said this many times but you have to pay tuition to edge weapon collecting U. Tuition is paid in many fashions. First is through educating yourself through interaction with other collectors, reading as much reference material as you possibly can, and handling as many genuine and even fake items as possible. You don't earn a masters your first year of university. It takes time. We have all made purchases that we were disappointed with. But when you are seeking opinions from the fraternity never shoot the messenger. You gotta have thick skin when you are paying your tuition. Pay attention and you will not be disappointed as often. But when you are disappointed, learn from it. But what each of us can share with you is that it takes many years to develop an eye that just can't be explained in the books. Cheers Mate!

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks to all thus far.

Originally Posted by ALEX

Gav and all, I totally agree with Jeff !!!
I understand your desire to learn the facts and see direct references. Hovewer, the general feeling about the item is very crucial factor, and it comes only with experience of handling, comparing and studying them. What Jeff has said makes lots of sense - he speaks out of experience, and it aint's humor in any way! The "old workmanship" is hard to describe in words - one has to simply "feel" it. Your kindjal lacks it indeed. The last picture, for example, shows zigzag pattern which id done by using a simple screw-driver; this "quicky" method is still used nowadays, and is sign of "low" quality production, just as the pattern being unaccurately traced throughout. I even can tell the tools being used were dull, and of low grade:-). As you said - if one invests $100 to produce it - it'll not look like $1000, and this is what it is
Also, Jeff provided an honest opinion and substantial references - and he deserves little more respect!

Thank you Alex,
As per the pictures supplied by Jeff and others I have searched there are vast degrees of styles and applications but I still cannot find Kindjal images anywhere amongst them, new or old that resemble this one. Why is this so? I do think calling this Kindjal "craftsmanshi(t)" as stated by Jeff does not show respect, hence the barrage.

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

Gav,
I’m afraid you are overly generous in calling that ‘craftsmanship,’ especially of the old world variety; have a look at the links below and see if you don’t agree that a slight change in the final consonant might be in order

There is a great deal of craftsmanship shown on this piece, I am not saying it is the holy grail of Kindjals but it does display efforts of an individual in a time past. It is aggreed that it is at the lower end of the scale when one considers gold inlay, silver filigree and ivory found on other examples but still, it is an unusual piece that no one can yet pin point to a region, style or accurate time frame and with substantiation.
With regards to the screw driver reference, I know that not to be true at all, as a metal worker myself in years past, it would appear that a scribe was used for these marking and they are the same markings that are found on the face of the piece between all the scrolling, remember that the images I have supplied are 4 times as wide as the actual piece, some of those zig zags are found 4 times within one milimetre, someone has gone to a lot of time trouble to honour this old blade, even the seam joint of the scabbard is barely visible on the inside of the scabbard and not to be seen at all on the outside. No offence to Jeff, he obviously knows what he is looking at but your statements Alex make it a whole lot clearer.

regards

Gav

Originally Posted by Henk

Gav,

I completely agree with Jeff and absolutely with Alex. Although this is not my field, I can see what Jeff and Alex are saying. Your reaction to Jeff is wrong.
Don't put your head in the sand and look again to the pictures of the Oriental Arms Kindjals, Jeff showed you. The differences are obvious and has nothing to do with a $100 or $1000 production.

Don't pour out your disapointment on your fellow forummembers when something is not what you hoped for.

Hi Henk,

I too can see and understand what Jeff was saying about construction methods and these knives are not my field either that is why I am searching out difinative answers. I don't think I am wrong in my reactions, I am happy to have points of interest pointed out, and what he has pointed out is true of the lack or technical purpose but it tells me nothing more of the knife?? I am not hoping for anything except for an explanation from those who know as to what materials where used, the region of manufature, country of original and styles etc, almost all that is said is good and well, in the immoratal words of a child "BUT WHY" is this said and why is that said. Is it a poor quality factory piece, was it made by Joe Blogs in a village after WW1? Feed me more than it is craftsmanshi"t" please.

regards

Gav

Originally Posted by ward

Gav you have to understand. I have handled thousands of pieces over the years and so have some of the other members. Half the time you can just give a quick look and tell if a piece is realitively new. Jeff gave you a well thought out very polite opinion. Your piece looks late 20th century the reasons given before seem correct. The work is sloppy and done as quickly as possible. The niello is poorly applied. You see a lot of this coming out of turkey. The piece is what it is. You have to be critical on pieces it is the only way you learn the difference between quality pieces and tourist and reproduction pieces.

Thank you ward, you offer up a good point of further review re; Turkey, criticism is fine, substantiation of the facts is best as that is the only way to truely learn.

Originally Posted by ariel

i am coming late on it, but regretfully I have to agree with Ward and the rest.
Although this is of a much better quality than the " last week" mass produced stamped monstrosities from Georgia, one cannot even think about " old world craftsmanship". I am surprised that Christie's even took it.
This is a hand-made, one of a kind, low quality, apprentice-level job. The metalwork is poor both artistically and technically. i do not know whether an old blade was used ( they do it often), but the mounts are below par. This level of performance was not acceptable in the 19th-beg. of 20th centuries. Together with the absence of any markings, I would agree with the " end of 20th cen." dating.
This is not a judgement on you personally; this is a judgement on the kindjal.
It is perfectly adequate to defend one's sister's honor, but as as example of a Caucasian tradition it leaves much behind.
Sorry.

Hi Ariel, I was hpong I would hear from you eventually. Better late than never they say in the classics.

You cover a good many points with the content I was looking for Ariel, I agree with all said thus far by all who have contibuted and have covered off above what I think needed to be said.
An old blade has been used and is of fine quality with a beaut distal taper and fine fullering and it whistles through the air when swung in the slashing motion for which they were designed. I will post more of the blade when the right winter light is available.
As far as the craftsmanship goes....I can still call it that albeiet that is wasn't made by Faberge, can you speak more about its secondry manufacture with an old blade? I think it is more likely 20/30's when people still took an interest in resurecting pieces rather than the post 50's mentality of discarding all that needs repairing, are their tell tale signs in the manufacture that I can look for that point it to the 20/30s rather than late 20th century?
I do add that someone must have loved the original knife very much and wanted to make a personal impression on it's revival with the best skills they knew how as it would have been easier if it is indeed late 20th century construction to buy a much more technically accurate reproduction Kindjal to place the blade in.

regards

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

I have said this many times but you have to pay tuition to edge weapon collecting U. Tuition is paid in many fashions. First is through educating yourself through interaction with other collectors, reading as much reference material as you possibly can, and handling as many genuine and even fake items as possible. You don't earn a masters your first year of university. It takes time. We have all made purchases that we were disappointed with. But when you are seeking opinions from the fraternity never shoot the messenger. You gotta have thick skin when you are paying your tuition. Pay attention and you will not be disappointed as often. But when you are disappointed, learn from it. But what each of us can share with you is that it takes many years to develop an eye that just can't be explained in the books. Cheers Mate!

Too true Rick, I could have been a little more thick skinned as you say.
You are right too about tuition, and really in the end, it is only taking an in interest that really helps anyone learn and understand.

What has been said is all good, and years of manufacture have been pointed out as late 20th century but I ask all "Why can't it be a Kindjal made of Nickel Silver (Which it is) made in 1880", was the right of making Kindjals only reserved for those of exception metal working skills in the late 1800's? My inquisitive nature will always want to know why why why and see proof, otherwise it is speculation.

regards

Gav

[fernando]

Originally Posted by freebooter

... "Why can't it be a Kindjal made of Nickel Silver (Which it is) made in 1880" ...

Indeed so Gav .
Look for item # dag_0065 in this link.
http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/Daggers.html
A piece also with the mountings in German ( nickel) silver, with a decoration somehow resembling yours ... however a bit more well finished, i would say ?
Mind you, the earlier date atributed to it could be a bit optimistic, though
Fernando

[Gavin Nugent]

Outstanding Fernando ;-)

Originally Posted by fernando

Indeed so Gav .
Look for item # dag_0065 in this link.
http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/Daggers.html
A piece also with the mountings in German ( nickel) silver, with a decoration somehow resembling yours ... however a bit more well finished, i would say ?
Mind you, the earlier date atributed to it could be a bit optimistic, though
Fernando

After reading Ariel's views of it being a one off, it re-enforced my views on it's nature and origins as being from someone near the turn on the 19/20th century, taking enough interest in their traditions and culture to create this piece the best they knew how, so that they own their own traditionally made Kindjal or as the link indicates, maybe to offer a friend or assosiate, much like goverments today and of old offer traditional gifts wether they be in the high or low end of the market.
I did notice too, even the examples offered up by Jeff from the oriental arms website, although of better quality still showed a lack of perfect symmetry in the embellishments. I am guessing unless really closely viewed you wouldn't notice them at first glance as the camera did not zoom as close as I did to show detail.
Nice find, I will continue to look for other examples too.


regards

Gav

[ariel]

Gav,
One can make a lot of arguments and invent a lot of reasons why this kindjal should still be viewed as representing some valuable offshot of a venerable tradition.
I suspect you are correct in ID-ing this blade as older and better than average quality. Still, the entire gestalt is of a late ( very late) manufacture when the real craftsmanship was no longer in use. There are professional masters in the Caucasus even now, and they produce expensive, time consuming and elaborate items. One can see these examples even in books and museum catalogs. Most of them are in poor taste, employ simpler techniques and compensate ( or try to) for the lack of real expertise by modern forms and features. This one does not have even that.
You may like it, and please feel free to enjoy it. Had you said that it was bought just because of personal interest or some irresistible urge, I would have understood. After all, we all bought pretty crummy things just because of emotional motives.
What I am objecting to is the attempt to present it as a legitimate example of an authentic antique and real tradition. It is not. I would not have bought it. But that would be just my personal decision.

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Ariel,
I totally understand what it is you are conveying, though I make no claims as to value of anything as that only comes into play if one wants to sell and there is another who wants what you have.

I do however think it worthy of exhaustive research on my part and I hope all here can offer up more for me to A/ Get a better understanding of these attractive knives and B/ get a better understanding of this piece through thorough examination of all parts and construction and materials used ie; what types of wood would be found under the handles and in the sheaths, I am sure there are particular species that would be common to the region or origin, what type of methods and material is used to keep all this wood silver and blade together? Mayhap little things like this will help me dismiss any ideas about it being 1880-1920.

I know Chris Evans has offered up many llinks to the craft of making Navaja, is there anything similar that can be read about the Kindjal?

Ariel, could you explain the different styles found under this umbrella of knife in Caucasian origin as to give me and others a better understanding of design and what that design represents as far as practical weapons go ie, sizes, the plain horn hilts, the horn one side ivory the other, with plain scabbards or with silver fittings to the leather scabbards and other variations like the full silver with neillo and filagree, what are functional weapons and what are for dress only or what are both.

What does this style of blade and fullering indicate at first glance Ariel? Any age factors to the blade gained from the photos at hand?

regards

Gav

[Rick]

Hi Gav, have you been through the archives yet ?
A search for 'kindjal' brings up two pages of threads .

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Rick, I sure have and have turned up some very useful postings wih maps etc. I hope others who did make posting on Kindjals might be able to fast track me to any info they think I may find useful.

regards

Gav

[Nagawarrior]

Gav;
May I recommend an excellent reference book, Chechen Arms, by Isa Askhabov. The people of the Caucasus are an intensely proud people. One of their proudest possessions are their weapons. It may be considered a great insult to infer that one would carry a weapon of inferior quality. Learn about these great people and you will understand. Enjoy your quest for knowledge.
Stephen

"A secret guardian of freedom, the punishing kindjal, last arbiter in matters of disgrace and insult........"

[scratch]

G'day
I have held this piece(Thank you Gavin) Dress, I know nothing. Blade I believe to be honestly made with craft.
Norman, if not for courtesy to guide I would be lost. Thank you for a timely reminder, to me

Sinceely,

Daniel

[Lew]

The blade seems to be well made and could be a blade from early part of the 20th century. Below is a quality blade that I thought was 19th century but turned out to be circa 1920-30. So older blade married to a more recent furniture.

Lew

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks for the comments gents,

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

The blade seems to be well made and could be a blade from early part of the 20th century. Below is a quality blade that I thought was 19th century but turned out to be circa 1920-30. So older blade married to a more recent furniture.

Lew

Thanks Lew, I agree with what has been said about an older blade being married with newer furniture for my piece and albeit in the tradition of the masters of old but without the exicution of their skills, and did guess that too when held side by side of the other I had here. What I wished to acheive was not to have it met with statements of it being an old antique, what I was hoping for was apart from obvious physical flaws, those who know state more thoroughly reasons why. All the toing and froing aside, I would like to know more about that blade shapes. The picture you provided Lew is a good point for comparison for me. Etchings aside, the fuller arrangement seems to be the exact offset as the ones pictured in mine, but you will notice the tip of mine is a nastier, almost recurve double edge with a long needle point. Does this denote and particular time in history or region of manufacture?
Thank you too Daniel for pointing out the first hand views and feel from you contact with this piece, appreciated.
On another note chaps, from what surfing I have done I understand Isa Askhabov is contactable through email via a website, can anyone here porovide his contact details to save me digging further and possibly doing language translations. PM me if you can.

best regards

Gav

[ariel]

I am reviving this topic to point out a dramatic change in Georgian weapons that occurred over the past several years.

Originally, in the 1990s, contemporary Georgian dealers were able to sell truly old examples. But inevitably those got exhausted. Instead came a flurry of junk made by amateurs. With time, there came a small but growing group of enthusiasts rediscovering history of Caucasian weapons and old techniques. They were greatly assisted by books written by Kirill Rivkin who systematized the localities, varieties, metallurgy and decorative techniques of Caucasian bladed weapons. Through trial and error they managed to produce modern examples that would definitely qualified as “good” by the old masters. Of course, they are not yet at the level of Eliarov, Papov, Purunsuzov and their illustrious contemporaries, but with time and money there is no reason to be pessimistic.

[Edster]

Ariel,

Thanks for reviving this thread. I have two such Kindjals I bought in Russia in the late '90s that may illustrate the downfall of the Caucasus traditions. I would appreciate an assessment of their quality and traditional validity. I have no ego investment into the items.

The bottom example of 2nd pic & first picture in post) was naively bought in Moscow as a souvenir. The three narrow fullers look ground and the metal shows what looks like copper/alloy peeking through a white metal coating.

The top knife was bought in (I think) Stavropol. It exhibits a more quality workmanship, but is it really "hand work"? The metal looks silver, but I couldn't get a good test using what may be degraded test solution. There is a red felt-like protector for the blade at the mouth of the sheath. Also, the knife was supplied with a long white (cotton?) sleeve for protection.

Best regards,
Ed

[ariel]

Yes, that was the sad time of cheap junk.
But here is a newly made kindjal, - blade, scabbard, handle, decoration. Georgian masters made a miraculous recovery and their contemporary examples are not worse than what was made in the second half of the 19 century.