Very confusing persian kard

Kubur · 14th April 2020, 11:02 AM

I have a question about a very confusing Persian kard.

It's an all wootz steel Persian kard but two things are very strange :

The scabbard is not Persian but from Sudan???

Then it seems that the decoration was bruptally removed and another inscription was placed above.

Is anyone such as Kiwatek can translate this inscription to help??

Thanks

Kubur · 14th April 2020, 11:05 AM

this way better

mariusgmioc · 14th April 2020, 11:10 AM

Hello Kubur,

It might have been the case the blade was badly rusted and the original koftgari was damaged/removed during the cleaning process, then the old cartouche was repaired, or alternately, a new cartouche was added.

Anyhow, this type of cartouche is not very common on Persian blades but on Turkish blades (Persian blades commonly had different type of decoration- see photos)

The blade can be also Turkish or North Indian. Unless we see more of the type of wootz, it would be hard to tell the difference.

PS: Ariel, I believe there can be discerned at least two sets of criss-cross hatchings that would point towards a secondary repaired/replaced cartouche.

ariel · 14th April 2020, 11:10 AM

Old bladed weapons very often come to us with their 3rd, 4th etc scabbards. Thus, IMHO, nothing surprising here.
And why do you think the original inscription was removed and replaced?

Richard G · 16th April 2020, 02:21 PM

The hatching and the inscription look fairly crude, and to my eyes at least, the wrong way up. Something I've noticed on several of these with the rough hatching.
Regards
Richard

Kubur · 16th April 2020, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

The hatching and the inscription look fairly crude, and to my eyes at least, the wrong way up.
Richard

It's what I think, if the scabbard is from Sudan I wonder if the inscription is from Sudan too...
I dream that kiwatek could help us...

kwiatek · 8th May 2020, 09:35 PM

Sorry for absence. It has been a strange time ...

It says, in Arabic:

هدیة من سلطان سليمان الى جوهر اغا

'Gift from Sultan Sulayman (Süleyman) to Jawhar Agha (Cevher Ağa)'

I don't think we can take that as a serious attribution, though it doesn't look like a modern fake to me either. From an early age artisans copied royal inscriptions on humbler pieces.

Kubur · 9th May 2020, 05:15 PM

Please don't be sorry, your help is so valuable.
The most important is to be safe and healthy.
Thank you very much and I agree the inscription doesn't fit with the knife and was added later. At least, it's very chic!
Warm regards,

Battara · 10th May 2020, 12:14 AM

Zukran Kwiatek!

ariel · 10th May 2020, 05:22 AM

Kubur,
I see what you mean: in your #2 the right side of the inscription looks different from the left one. It is not as tight. Definitely the inscription was monkeyed with.

14th April 2020, 11:02 AM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Very confusing persian kard I have a question about a very confusing Persian kard. It's an all wootz steel Persian kard but two things are very strange : The scabbard is not Persian but from Sudan??? Then it seems that the decoration was bruptally removed and another inscription was placed above. Is anyone such as Kiwatek can translate this inscription to help?? Thanks Attached Images

14th April 2020, 11:10 AM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hello Kubur, It might have been the case the blade was badly rusted and the original koftgari was damaged/removed during the cleaning process, then the old cartouche was repaired, or alternately, a new cartouche was added. Anyhow, this type of cartouche is not very common on Persian blades but on Turkish blades (Persian blades commonly had different type of decoration- see photos) The blade can be also Turkish or North Indian. Unless we see more of the type of wootz, it would be hard to tell the difference. PS: Ariel, I believe there can be discerned at least two sets of criss-cross hatchings that would point towards a secondary repaired/replaced cartouche. Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 14th April 2020 at 11:30 AM.

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14th April 2020, 11:05 AM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	this way better Attached Images

14th April 2020, 11:10 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Old bladed weapons very often come to us with their 3rd, 4th etc scabbards. Thus, IMHO, nothing surprising here. And why do you think the original inscription was removed and replaced?

16th April 2020, 02:21 PM	#5
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 405	The hatching and the inscription look fairly crude, and to my eyes at least, the wrong way up. Something I've noticed on several of these with the rough hatching. Regards Richard

8th May 2020, 09:35 PM	#7
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 153	Sorry for absence. It has been a strange time ... It says, in Arabic: هدیة من سلطان سليمان الى جوهر اغا 'Gift from Sultan Sulayman (Süleyman) to Jawhar Agha (Cevher Ağa)' I don't think we can take that as a serious attribution, though it doesn't look like a modern fake to me either. From an early age artisans copied royal inscriptions on humbler pieces.

9th May 2020, 05:15 PM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Please don't be sorry, your help is so valuable. The most important is to be safe and healthy. Thank you very much and I agree the inscription doesn't fit with the knife and was added later. At least, it's very chic! Warm regards,

10th May 2020, 12:14 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Zukran Kwiatek!

10th May 2020, 05:22 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur, I see what you mean: in your #2 the right side of the inscription looks different from the left one. It is not as tight. Definitely the inscription was monkeyed with.