Old? Khukuri with kora hilt

Emanuel · 27th April 2006, 08:03 PM

Greetings,
I'd like to know what you think about this big khukri http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
It has a nice beefy blade - seller says 65cm long - so the handle is about 8 inches long...huge. Is it an old type of khukury? It has a pommel similar to indian disk pommels, but the "points" of the star/disk look somehwat sloppy, carved into the metal rather than shaped. The "bronze dip" looks melted/corroded off, and the companion knives are weird. Thoughts?

Manolo

spiral · 27th April 2006, 08:42 PM

mmmmm I saw that one, kukri in that style exist but this one Looks like a modern reproduction {fake.} handle put on an older blade, & it doesnt look like any modern Nepal real kami work, Ive seen.

Looks rather like the handle could even have electro welded seems & joins perhaps?

Glad to see none of the 5 bidders are in the the usual 20 or so strong kukri crowd.

The fish shaped Chakma {shapening steel/spark striker} is good & a typical style found on real village kukris. {as opposed to old military or the modern main manufacturer commercial kukris which are made for westerners to purchase.}

Spiral

Emanuel · 28th April 2006, 02:06 AM

The welding does give it away...what does genuine Nepali work in this style look like? Do the kora hilts still carry Indian-tulwar-like disks?
Would this modern hilt be an attempt to make the khukri seem older or are such hilts still an option subject to local preference?

Manolo

RobT · 28th April 2006, 03:46 AM

Hi All,
I agree with Spiral. The blade is old and the hilt is new. The sheath and by-knives are also old. What is especially distressing is that the ferrule is also appropriate to the blade and instead of simply fitting a proper replacement hilt, it would appear that somebody tried to make a "rare" piece of increased value. Judging from the closing price, it would appear that the strategem worked. The fact that they may have ruined a largely intact authentic antique in the process pains me on two counts. One for the piece itself and two for the fact that the seller's success will probably spur similar efforts. A plague on those responsible.
Sincerely,
RobT

kronckew · 28th April 2006, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

The welding does give it away...what does genuine Nepali work in this style look like? Do the kora hilts still carry Indian-tulwar-like disks?
Would this modern hilt be an attempt to make the khukri seem older or are such hilts still an option subject to local preference?

Manolo

they are still occasionally making special run kukh's with similar style grips, but workmanship is generally better. Himalayan Imports Version: see Linky

that multipoint star on the grip would have failed me in shop class, the overcuts are really poor.

original talwar hilted kukhri, note v-notch in scabbard to fit hilt, something to look for in originals: Linky from BladeForums Kukhri subforum

Ferguson · 28th April 2006, 05:52 PM

I agree with everyone that the hilt was changed at some time after the khukuri was originally made. I also agree that the workmanship of the hilt is less than the original. The only thing I don't see, is any evidence of electric welding, either arc, mig, or tig. I suspect it was done by a metalworker in India, Nepal, or a similar area. The cylindrical part of the hilt does seem to be a piece of manufactured tubing of some sort. I can't tell if the seam is brazed or not welded at all, but it doesn't look electric welded.

It's a shame.

Steve

Emanuel · 28th April 2006, 08:28 PM

Many thanks for the explanations and links. The bolster as seen on the 7th picture seemes to show welding, and the tube handle showes signs as well. It really is sad that the hilt makers abused the knife so terribly. I like the blade on this one, in its original state it might have been aven more of a beauty.
How "comfortable" were the genuine kora hilts? It seems to me that the bottom disk would dig into the wrist no?
Regards,
Manolo

not2sharp · 28th April 2006, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Many thanks for the explanations and links. The bolster as seen on the 7th picture seemes to show welding, and the tube handle showes signs as well. It really is sad that the hilt makers abused the knife so terribly. I like the blade on this one, in its original state it might have been aven more of a beauty.
How "comfortable" were the genuine kora hilts? It seems to me that the bottom disk would dig into the wrist no?
Regards,
Manolo

They can be comfortable to use. The bottom disk will rest up against the base of the hand, to help keep the grip from sliding around. But, the ones I have seen have been a bit small for me. This one looks like it was made for larger hands.

ariel · 28th April 2006, 11:55 PM

I have 3 Koras, with handles of different size: from slightly tight to very roomy.
No fine movements are possible. No movement with the exception of brute hacking is possible, as a matter of fact. And on top of that, when the hacking arm is ~ halfway down and the wrist is abducted, the upper disk bites into the fleshy part of the hand. It hurts.
The bottom line: if you are arming yourself for a battle, do your best to avoid being issued a Kora.
Get an AK-47 with a bayonet.

spiral · 29th April 2006, 12:50 PM

Heres a few points about kora/kukris & this grip.

Gurkhas hands are much finer boned/ smaller than most western hands.

If you are born in a shack most of you woulndnt consider fit for a garden shed, Living with your parents , sick grandmother & 7 siblings & a load of chikens half way up a mountain in Nepal, without carpet, matresss, windows etc. where you have to descend a ravine of 2000 or 3000 feet evry morning just to get your water to drink your concepts of comfort may be somewhat different that us who live in what would be beyond the dreams of luxery to most Gurkhas of yesteryear.

The concept of hanging onto your weapon in battle would be a greater priority than comfort to them.

.But sure I think the kora was comfterable & usefull as far as they were concerned.

Some western Perceptions of the tecniques used with kora may not be based how the Gurkhas percied their use. Personly I find them quite usefull & would not find them awkward to use if neccasary. Lateral thinking & all that.

AK47 is better

but its bayonet is a better wire cutter than weapon.

Whoever made that "kora" handle, couldnt make a blade remotly like that. It exhibits no forging, its an assembly of junk from a scrap bin & exhibits nill knife workmanship skills.

Having had a closer look, Steve is right it is not welded but it does exhibit clear evidence of Brazing. Originals would also be brazed, but that sure isnt one of them.

Lots of modern fake Tulwar handle kukri in Nepal & India for sale, But they are made by kami. {still tourist junk though.}

N2S Has the best example of a genuine one I have seen in the west so far.

Spiral.

ariel · 29th April 2006, 03:11 PM

Don't underestimate the bayonet: the Brits in India proved it's advantage over a sword. After all, it is a spear. Parrying sword cuts with the rifle is quite easy and you can use both ends: the blade and the butt. Bayonet routines were quite developed and in close quarters it is a tremendously useful weapon.
As for the fine-boned Ghurkas, I asked my daughter to wield a Kora: the upper disk still bit into the wrist and she was very uncomfortable. Perhaps, there are some esthetic or other reasons for the construction of Kora's handle (just like Tulwar's), but mechanically it is awkward becase it prevents full abduction of the wrist joint. With a Kora, no movement except for a wide-arc hacking is possible. And, as they say in fencing , "It's all in the wrist"

The best sword handle for a one-hand grip from the mechanical point of view is Polish "hussar" saber: the thumb ring switches the axis in such a way that the blade becomes an extension of the forearm. Old fencing swords had a molded handle requiring a two-finger control of the blade but the introduction of "pistol" grips gave an incredible advantage, which is based on the same principle as the thumb-ring handles.
Swords are neat mechanical contraptions and were improved upon for milennia. Koras adhered to old traditions far too long and missed the path of progress (if one defines progress as a more effective way of chopping your fellow human being to pieces).

spiral · 29th April 2006, 03:40 PM

I would say kora should be used without wrist flexing in circular downward motions from the shoulder. It wasnt built for fencing.

Thats what I mean by diffence in concept of technique.

Its not the best weapon ever invented, but I wouldnt want to be hit with one by a fatalistic warrier who belives in both fate & reincarnation.

Excelent weapon defending ramparts & the down hill do or die charge as well that were so favoured in Nepal in days of old.

Or for controling the local population, feudal style , I suppose.

But I dont think anyone was saying that more effective sword designs havent been in existance. Its certanly not a sword I would pick to take to battle.

But they are still an intresting part of Nepali history I think.

I like bayonets, my slighty tounge in cheek reference/comment {due to the fact Kora seem to not to have been used much for battle after 186o or so wheras AK 47 came about 100 years later.} was about the AK .47 /AKM seris bayonet which is a tottaly blunt but sure even a blunt blade will penetrate on the end of an 8lb rifle.

But fundemetaly the soviet bayonets for the last 50 years are designed as wire cutters. They do that well. Works for intimidation as well. Would work better ay a bayonet if it was sharp though.

But Give me a 1903 British Bayonet, 1918 Swiss or equivilant any day. Now that is a bayonet.

Spiral

Emanuel · 29th April 2006, 05:35 PM

N2S, Ariel and Spiral, thank you for the answers. Did Ghurkas ever wear gloves or any sort of gauntlets?
A few more questions about the use of these weapons: where was the "sweet spot" located. Did the experienced warrior try to hit with the wide tip, the concave underside of the forward-curving part of the blade, or with the more or less straight part. As I understand concave blades, the cut involves a draw/saw motion as well, the concavity pulling the blade into the wound. Since the awkward hilt did not allow fancy movement, how was the cut achieved? Ultimately, due to the shoulder-led swing was the kora any more efficient than a straight blade?
To my eyes they are still magnificent weapons, and somehow that hilt just "fits", better than the tulwar hilts.

I think many fighters around the world can attest to the efficiency of the AK-47. Does any country still issue bayonets to its troops?

Manolo

spiral · 29th April 2006, 05:44 PM

Some British Gurkhas wore gloves. Not sure about Nepali army.

The shoulders circular motian automaticly provides a pull cut with the locked wrist., after reaching maximum forward point of extention try it and see.

I agree AK47 is good!

British troops are issued bayonets, & many countries that use AKM/AK 47.still do .{so evry infantryman can deal with barbed wire.

}

Spiral

27th April 2006, 08:03 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Old? Khukuri with kora hilt Greetings, I'd like to know what you think about this big khukri http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 It has a nice beefy blade - seller says 65cm long - so the handle is about 8 inches long...huge. Is it an old type of khukury? It has a pommel similar to indian disk pommels, but the "points" of the star/disk look somehwat sloppy, carved into the metal rather than shaped. The "bronze dip" looks melted/corroded off, and the companion knives are weird. Thoughts? Manolo

28th April 2006, 03:46 AM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 492	Married Piece Hi All, I agree with Spiral. The blade is old and the hilt is new. The sheath and by-knives are also old. What is especially distressing is that the ferrule is also appropriate to the blade and instead of simply fitting a proper replacement hilt, it would appear that somebody tried to make a "rare" piece of increased value. Judging from the closing price, it would appear that the strategem worked. The fact that they may have ruined a largely intact authentic antique in the process pains me on two counts. One for the piece itself and two for the fact that the seller's success will probably spur similar efforts. A plague on those responsible. Sincerely, RobT

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27th April 2006, 08:42 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	mmmmm I saw that one, kukri in that style exist but this one Looks like a modern reproduction {fake.} handle put on an older blade, & it doesnt look like any modern Nepal real kami work, Ive seen. Looks rather like the handle could even have electro welded seems & joins perhaps? Glad to see none of the 5 bidders are in the the usual 20 or so strong kukri crowd. The fish shaped Chakma {shapening steel/spark striker} is good & a typical style found on real village kukris. {as opposed to old military or the modern main manufacturer commercial kukris which are made for westerners to purchase.} Spiral

28th April 2006, 02:06 AM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	The welding does give it away...what does genuine Nepali work in this style look like? Do the kora hilts still carry Indian-tulwar-like disks? Would this modern hilt be an attempt to make the khukri seem older or are such hilts still an option subject to local preference? Manolo

28th April 2006, 05:52 PM	#6
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	I agree with everyone that the hilt was changed at some time after the khukuri was originally made. I also agree that the workmanship of the hilt is less than the original. The only thing I don't see, is any evidence of electric welding, either arc, mig, or tig. I suspect it was done by a metalworker in India, Nepal, or a similar area. The cylindrical part of the hilt does seem to be a piece of manufactured tubing of some sort. I can't tell if the seam is brazed or not welded at all, but it doesn't look electric welded. It's a shame. Steve

28th April 2006, 08:28 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Many thanks for the explanations and links. The bolster as seen on the 7th picture seemes to show welding, and the tube handle showes signs as well. It really is sad that the hilt makers abused the knife so terribly. I like the blade on this one, in its original state it might have been aven more of a beauty. How "comfortable" were the genuine kora hilts? It seems to me that the bottom disk would dig into the wrist no? Regards, Manolo

28th April 2006, 11:55 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have 3 Koras, with handles of different size: from slightly tight to very roomy. No fine movements are possible. No movement with the exception of brute hacking is possible, as a matter of fact. And on top of that, when the hacking arm is ~ halfway down and the wrist is abducted, the upper disk bites into the fleshy part of the hand. It hurts. The bottom line: if you are arming yourself for a battle, do your best to avoid being issued a Kora. Get an AK-47 with a bayonet.

29th April 2006, 12:50 PM	#10
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Heres a few points about kora/kukris & this grip. Gurkhas hands are much finer boned/ smaller than most western hands. If you are born in a shack most of you woulndnt consider fit for a garden shed, Living with your parents , sick grandmother & 7 siblings & a load of chikens half way up a mountain in Nepal, without carpet, matresss, windows etc. where you have to descend a ravine of 2000 or 3000 feet evry morning just to get your water to drink your concepts of comfort may be somewhat different that us who live in what would be beyond the dreams of luxery to most Gurkhas of yesteryear. The concept of hanging onto your weapon in battle would be a greater priority than comfort to them. .But sure I think the kora was comfterable & usefull as far as they were concerned. Some western Perceptions of the tecniques used with kora may not be based how the Gurkhas percied their use. Personly I find them quite usefull & would not find them awkward to use if neccasary. Lateral thinking & all that. AK47 is better but its bayonet is a better wire cutter than weapon. Whoever made that "kora" handle, couldnt make a blade remotly like that. It exhibits no forging, its an assembly of junk from a scrap bin & exhibits nill knife workmanship skills. Having had a closer look, Steve is right it is not welded but it does exhibit clear evidence of Brazing. Originals would also be brazed, but that sure isnt one of them. Lots of modern fake Tulwar handle kukri in Nepal & India for sale, But they are made by kami. {still tourist junk though.} N2S Has the best example of a genuine one I have seen in the west so far. Spiral.

29th April 2006, 03:11 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Don't underestimate the bayonet: the Brits in India proved it's advantage over a sword. After all, it is a spear. Parrying sword cuts with the rifle is quite easy and you can use both ends: the blade and the butt. Bayonet routines were quite developed and in close quarters it is a tremendously useful weapon. As for the fine-boned Ghurkas, I asked my daughter to wield a Kora: the upper disk still bit into the wrist and she was very uncomfortable. Perhaps, there are some esthetic or other reasons for the construction of Kora's handle (just like Tulwar's), but mechanically it is awkward becase it prevents full abduction of the wrist joint. With a Kora, no movement except for a wide-arc hacking is possible. And, as they say in fencing , "It's all in the wrist" The best sword handle for a one-hand grip from the mechanical point of view is Polish "hussar" saber: the thumb ring switches the axis in such a way that the blade becomes an extension of the forearm. Old fencing swords had a molded handle requiring a two-finger control of the blade but the introduction of "pistol" grips gave an incredible advantage, which is based on the same principle as the thumb-ring handles. Swords are neat mechanical contraptions and were improved upon for milennia. Koras adhered to old traditions far too long and missed the path of progress (if one defines progress as a more effective way of chopping your fellow human being to pieces).

29th April 2006, 03:40 PM	#12
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I would say kora should be used without wrist flexing in circular downward motions from the shoulder. It wasnt built for fencing. Thats what I mean by diffence in concept of technique. Its not the best weapon ever invented, but I wouldnt want to be hit with one by a fatalistic warrier who belives in both fate & reincarnation. Excelent weapon defending ramparts & the down hill do or die charge as well that were so favoured in Nepal in days of old. Or for controling the local population, feudal style , I suppose. But I dont think anyone was saying that more effective sword designs havent been in existance. Its certanly not a sword I would pick to take to battle. But they are still an intresting part of Nepali history I think. I like bayonets, my slighty tounge in cheek reference/comment {due to the fact Kora seem to not to have been used much for battle after 186o or so wheras AK 47 came about 100 years later.} was about the AK .47 /AKM seris bayonet which is a tottaly blunt but sure even a blunt blade will penetrate on the end of an 8lb rifle. But fundemetaly the soviet bayonets for the last 50 years are designed as wire cutters. They do that well. Works for intimidation as well. Would work better ay a bayonet if it was sharp though. But Give me a 1903 British Bayonet, 1918 Swiss or equivilant any day. Now that is a bayonet. Spiral

29th April 2006, 05:35 PM	#13
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	N2S, Ariel and Spiral, thank you for the answers. Did Ghurkas ever wear gloves or any sort of gauntlets? A few more questions about the use of these weapons: where was the "sweet spot" located. Did the experienced warrior try to hit with the wide tip, the concave underside of the forward-curving part of the blade, or with the more or less straight part. As I understand concave blades, the cut involves a draw/saw motion as well, the concavity pulling the blade into the wound. Since the awkward hilt did not allow fancy movement, how was the cut achieved? Ultimately, due to the shoulder-led swing was the kora any more efficient than a straight blade? To my eyes they are still magnificent weapons, and somehow that hilt just "fits", better than the tulwar hilts. I think many fighters around the world can attest to the efficiency of the AK-47. Does any country still issue bayonets to its troops? Manolo

29th April 2006, 05:44 PM	#14
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Some British Gurkhas wore gloves. Not sure about Nepali army. The shoulders circular motian automaticly provides a pull cut with the locked wrist., after reaching maximum forward point of extention try it and see. I agree AK47 is good! British troops are issued bayonets, & many countries that use AKM/AK 47.still do .{so evry infantryman can deal with barbed wire. } Spiral