DOEHOENG KASOENDAN (A Soenda Perspective)

Jean · 23rd July 2019, 01:43 PM

Hello Amuk,
Thank you very much for showing us these nice and rare pieces, please go on!
I notice that you use the letters "oe" instead of "u" and "tj" instead of "c" as per the old tradition, is "tjorok/ corok" referring to a long blade?
Best regards

Jean · 23rd July 2019, 01:48 PM

Hello Amuk,
The gambar/ atasan of the pusaka kris looks like a rare model from East Java/ Madura, the one of specimen 00 a model from Tegal, and the one of specimen 02 a model from East Java, are they all originating from Sunda?
Regards

David · 23rd July 2019, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

I notice that you use the letters "oe" instead of "u" and "tj" instead of "c" as per the old tradition, is "tjorok/ corok" referring to a long blade?

Yes Jean, Amuk generally seems to use the old Dutch spellings that have fallen out of usage in Indonesia since the early 1970s. I do find it a bit confusing at times myself.
I assume, Amuk, that when you write "Doehoeng" you are intenting one of the alternative words for keris better known as "Dhuwung"?
An interesting collection of old keris in lesser seen dress forms regardless.
Does anyone of a translation of the writing at the top of the pendok on the first (1813) keris?

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2019, 06:08 AM

David, I have no knowledge of the Sundanese language, however, I have recently made the acquaintance of a gentleman from Sunda who was a university lecturer, he tells me that "duhung" ie, Amuk's "doehoeng" is in fact not a direct equivalent to the Javanese "duwung" or "dhuwung", but rather can only be used to refer to a keris that is in the possession of an important man, somebody with some sort of government rank, or who is recognised in his community as being of high status.

If that keris were to become the possession of somebody who was not a person of importance, then strictly speaking, it could no longer be referred to as "duhung".

Thus, all these keris that Amuk has shown to us must be keris that belong at this present time to a person of some status.

Jean · 25th July 2019, 09:46 AM

It seems to me that Amuk is only referring the first kris (poesaka) as doehoeng but not the others.

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2019, 10:02 AM

It is in the description of all the others too Jean.

David · 25th July 2019, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, I have no knowledge of the Sundanese language, however, I have recently made the acquaintance of a gentleman from Sunda who was a university lecturer, he tells me that "duhung" ie, Amuk's "doehoeng" is in fact not a direct equivalent to the Javanese "duwung" or "dhuwung", but rather can only be used to refer to a keris that is in the possession of an important man, somebody with some sort of government rank, or who is recognised in his community as being of high status.

If that keris were to become the possession of somebody who was not a person of importance, then strictly speaking, it could no longer be referred to as "duhung".

Thus, all these keris that Amuk has shown to us must be keris that belong at this present time to a person of some status.

Thanks for that added information Alan.

jagabuwana · 13th August 2019, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, I have no knowledge of the Sundanese language, however, I have recently made the acquaintance of a gentleman from Sunda who was a university lecturer, he tells me that "duhung" ie, Amuk's "doehoeng" is in fact not a direct equivalent to the Javanese "duwung" or "dhuwung", but rather can only be used to refer to a keris that is in the possession of an important man, somebody with some sort of government rank, or who is recognised in his community as being of high status.

If that keris were to become the possession of somebody who was not a person of importance, then strictly speaking, it could no longer be referred to as "duhung".

Thus, all these keris that Amuk has shown to us must be keris that belong at this present time to a person of some status.

As with Javanese, Sundanese has high and low forms, i.e. kasar (loosely translate to coarse, rough, abrasive, harsh) or halus (loosely translated to proper, polished, refine). To my understanding, "keris" is on the kasar end of the spectrum though wouldn't necessarily register as kasar if you referred to your own keris or referring to the object abstractly as "keris". Though the halus or proper term for another person's keris, especially if they were high born or were had rank or status would indeed be duhung. That's my understanding of it anyway. I think the term is relatively archaic as far as working Sundanese goes.

So in the context of this post and to what Alan's friend from Sunda said, it makes sense that in the Sundanese language that these are referred to as duhung as opposed to just "keris". You would probably not refer to your own keris as a "duhung" though, even if you were of high status.

A. G. Maisey · 13th August 2019, 11:32 PM

Well Jaga, you might refer to your own keris as "duhung" --- I guess it all depends upon one's opinion of oneself.

jagabuwana · 14th August 2019, 03:18 AM

Haha, might need more stamps in my passport to get away with that one.

I should add that the reason "duhung" is archaic in everyday Sundanese usage is likely because the keris has little to no significance to Sundanese people nowadays (where it once used to, though of course not anywhere close to its importance in Javanese culture), and therefore very few would really care or pick up on it if you referred to someone else's duhung as a "keris".

Interestingly, the only thing referred to as "duhung" at the Prabu Geusan Ulun museum in Sumedang is a badik, and the keris are just called keris.

If I recall correctly, I think Eiseman in Sekala and Niskala mentioned that it the keris , at least where he lived in Bali, was almost never referred to as "keris" but as words that were euphemisms for it, out of respect for the power and place of the object in society and culture, and that these euphemisms were "high" Balinese.

A. G. Maisey · 14th August 2019, 08:30 AM

It is a characteristic of Javanese & Balinese language patterns to use euphemisms to refer to anything at all that might be a little, let us say, "touchy". There are euphemisms spread right through keris terminology.

In Javanese there are a number of names for the keris, and they refer to the keris in various situations, probably so in Old Javanese as well, but we cannot be certain of this.

Language changes all the time, when we use the concept of "archaic" usage, it can be a matter of something being archaic in common usage, but utterly correct in a specific situation.

23rd July 2019, 01:48 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Amuk, The gambar/ atasan of the pusaka kris looks like a rare model from East Java/ Madura, the one of specimen 00 a model from Tegal, and the one of specimen 02 a model from East Java, are they all originating from Sunda? Regards Last edited by Jean; 23rd July 2019 at 03:56 PM.

14th August 2019, 03:18 AM	#10
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 292	Haha, might need more stamps in my passport to get away with that one. I should add that the reason "duhung" is archaic in everyday Sundanese usage is likely because the keris has little to no significance to Sundanese people nowadays (where it once used to, though of course not anywhere close to its importance in Javanese culture), and therefore very few would really care or pick up on it if you referred to someone else's duhung as a "keris". Interestingly, the only thing referred to as "duhung" at the Prabu Geusan Ulun museum in Sumedang is a badik, and the keris are just called keris. If I recall correctly, I think Eiseman in Sekala and Niskala mentioned that it the keris , at least where he lived in Bali, was almost never referred to as "keris" but as words that were euphemisms for it, out of respect for the power and place of the object in society and culture, and that these euphemisms were "high" Balinese. Last edited by jagabuwana; 14th August 2019 at 07:24 AM.

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23rd July 2019, 01:43 PM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Amuk, Thank you very much for showing us these nice and rare pieces, please go on! I notice that you use the letters "oe" instead of "u" and "tj" instead of "c" as per the old tradition, is "tjorok/ corok" referring to a long blade? Best regards

25th July 2019, 06:08 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	David, I have no knowledge of the Sundanese language, however, I have recently made the acquaintance of a gentleman from Sunda who was a university lecturer, he tells me that "duhung" ie, Amuk's "doehoeng" is in fact not a direct equivalent to the Javanese "duwung" or "dhuwung", but rather can only be used to refer to a keris that is in the possession of an important man, somebody with some sort of government rank, or who is recognised in his community as being of high status. If that keris were to become the possession of somebody who was not a person of importance, then strictly speaking, it could no longer be referred to as "duhung". Thus, all these keris that Amuk has shown to us must be keris that belong at this present time to a person of some status.

25th July 2019, 09:46 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	It seems to me that Amuk is only referring the first kris (poesaka) as doehoeng but not the others.

25th July 2019, 10:02 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	It is in the description of all the others too Jean.

13th August 2019, 11:32 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Well Jaga, you might refer to your own keris as "duhung" --- I guess it all depends upon one's opinion of oneself.

14th August 2019, 08:30 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	It is a characteristic of Javanese & Balinese language patterns to use euphemisms to refer to anything at all that might be a little, let us say, "touchy". There are euphemisms spread right through keris terminology. In Javanese there are a number of names for the keris, and they refer to the keris in various situations, probably so in Old Javanese as well, but we cannot be certain of this. Language changes all the time, when we use the concept of "archaic" usage, it can be a matter of something being archaic in common usage, but utterly correct in a specific situation.