A katar is a katar till......

[ariel]

Elgood did his best trying to transcribe words of one language into another. This is a difficult and thankless task that is opening the “transcriber” to criticisms . I have no idea how the Indian words sound and what would be the best phonetic rendition of Sosun? Sausun? Sauason? Sossun? On top of that the sound should conform to high-class British English. To his advantage he was doing it while staying in India, surrounded by native speakers and professional linguists.

So, guys, perhaps Jim ‘s comments have a grain of truth, and your sniping criticisms reflect not so much phonetic shortcomings of Elgood’s work, but your limited knowledge of languages? Nothing offensive, that can happen to anyone.

Matter ( as substance) and mother come from the same Sanskrit root “ma”,
And BTW, it was Carl Jung ( who by all accounts was not a dummy) who said that the root matter is the mother of all things.

As to the apparent impropriety of using “leaves” in describing “blades”, please recall that leaves of grass are called blades in English, and Walt Whitman is my witness:-)

[Jim McDougall]

As Nihl has noted in previous post, the curious 'Garsoe ' katar/jamadhar which appears in Egerton (p.138, fig. 727) image attached, defies any definition as to 'why' it has been given this term, or for that matter, why its sidebars are scrolled or undulating.

As I previously mentioned, Jens has an incredible knowledge of the katar, pretty much unparalleled, and if he has not found an answer, it is so deeply hidden that possible no accurate solution may be discovered.

We know that seemingly, Egerton made the first reference to this form of jamadhar/katar and decribes it as with 'curved side bars' (plate XIV, #727) as a 'garsoee katar'. ...and from Bhuj, Kach.

These regions are in Ghujerat, with Bhuj a major city and Kach (Cutch) also a key province. Sind (now in Pakistan) is situated north of Gujerat and separated from Gujerat by the huge salt marsh known as the Rann of Cutch.

It does seem that these regions have given us another distinct weapon, commonly called elephant sword (for the fixture on the hilt using that figure) but often termed a 'bhuj'. This is a hafted dagger often seen used by Sindhi horsemen(picture attached).

It would seem that this curious curved bar katar was perhaps named for the place from which it is known(or tribe?) given the propensity to term a weapon in that manner (i.e. bhuj).

Whatever the case, the Egerton(1880) term (again) stood and was perpetuated by other writers. This carried to the great conundrum which was discovered by Jens in research he was doing on this about 15 years ago (seen in posts by him in 2006).
In "Contribution a l'Etude des Armes Orientales" ( Holstein, Paris, 1931, vol. I, plate XIII, #19) a curious extremely simple transverse grip dagger is illustrated...….it is attributed as 'GARSOE KATAR' from Bhoudj, Catch, and from the Henri Moser collection in Musee d' Berne.

However the curator of that museum insisted that no such dagger in the collection (now in storage)existed. It does seem that in Holstein another dagger with the curved bars was shown in the plate. Obviously this must have been a captioning error (?).
While not offering a solution to our dilemma, it seems clear that even by 1931, nobody knew what 'garsoe' meant.

Pant (1980) shows a Garsoe in fig. 489, but reference on p.173 simply refers to the illustration, saying it has already been described.

The images:
1) the Holstein (1931) image of a 'katar' described (apparently wrongly) as garsoe katar, #19, plate XIII
2) 1827 map of Sind and Catch (Kutch) in Gujerat, the water area (in appearance in the huge Rann of Kutch salt marsh (seasonal).
3) Sindhi cavalier wielding bhuj knife (from Haider)
4) the Egerton (1880) entry for garsoee katar (#727,)

[Nihl]

Excellent overview Jim! Unfortunately that summarizes my knowledge of the form as well. I did a little bit of looking around online and found an example that has the more usual two-bar grip instead of a single bar, though it's most likely an outlier and not some big subcategory or anything.

Back to the topic of leafs & blades briefly, my simple contribution is the leaf-bladed sword category itself. This is a style (that I'm sure everyone's familiar with) that is double-edged and has a slightly swollen "belly" or midsection that then tapers back down to a point (like a leaf), found all over the world.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Nihl!
This 'Garsoe' topic has got me going and I saw a post of mine from 2012 where I asked (rheotorically) I wonder what that term means?

I found a post by Jens about that time, where he had found a coin from 1871 with an image of a katar with distinctive curved ends on the side bars.
This is atypical for katars (as are the scrolled side bars on 'garsoe'), and the coin is from Nawanagar on the Kathiswar peninsula in Kutch .
It is noted that the suffix 'GAR' (=fort).

In Kathiwar (also in Gujerat) the Kuttee people hsve a key affinity for the katar and regard it as a symbol of honor, to the point that any agreement, oath or contract is signed with the mark of the katar. Any breech of said contract is considered dishonorable and requires 'traga', often simply a cut by the katar but is even more dramatically suicide (seldom carried out).
There are talwars which have a katar marked on the blade, which we presume from these regions.

It would seem that the katar has an unusually key significance in these regions of Kutch in a traditional and symbolic manner, and clearly a certain application of 'design' seems afforded the weaponry there.
The 'garsoe' and this other Kutch form with upturned side guard noted (as pictured) seem to reflect such design features of these regions.

The note on 'GAR' meaning fort gives a clue, that perhaps the design for the garsoe might be attributed to an armory (?) in a local fort in Kutch, where such design was fashioned for someone in the princely retinue, or other person of standing

Going through references, this is what I can find thus far. The entry by Jens where he matched the coin to the shape of the katar hilt illustrates the kind of astute research he carries out on these weapons. Amazing!

While speculative, perhaps tenuous, these factors are worth considering.

[Mercenary]

It is very likely that the “garsoe” is a highly distorted “plow-shaped”. Plows which look like a handlebar of Harley-Davidson's chopper are much more common in South India, but even single-lever plows often have a curved handle.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

It is very likely that the “garsoe” is a highly distorted “plow-shaped”. Plows which look like a handlebar of Harley-Davidson's chopper are much more common in South India, but even single-lever plows often have a curved handle.

That is a most interesting observation (love the Harley analogy! back in the day they called those 'monkey hangers' on their choppers).
It is true many weapons were formed after various tools and implements, but not sure on these distinctively curved bars being so fashioned.

Im more curious on what in the world 'garsoe' means, and where Egerton got the term. As I noted the suffix 'gar' means fort in dialects in Gujerati areas, but hope linguists here can offer some insights.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Sorry for the late reply, but I have been away for a few days.
Jim shows a katar and two coins, but it is known that the curwed side guards can be seen in the Hamza - so they go back for centuries.
The katar shown in Holstein and in Jim's post no 31 is a drawing. Only after I pubished the article How Old is the Katar? I found a photo of the katar in Hindu Temple art of Orissa, vol. III by T.E.Donaldson.



I have a funny feeling that Pant used the name Jamdhar like we use the name Katar. To him it seems, as if all these daggers were Jamdhars, although he seems to have added some other dagger to this group - see below.


Studies in Indian Weapons and Warfare, p. 159.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I find the research of the names interesting, but what I find more important is the research of the weapons themselves.

I did some research of the katar (How Old is the Katar?), and I do hope that others will follow up on this research, not only on the katar, but on all the Indian weapons, as deep research is the only way to new knowledge.

[Jim McDougall]

Mercenary, that is probably one of the most succinct, brilliantly reasoned analysis' of what we have 'playfully' (if not frustratedly) termed the 'name game' I have ever read. It is abundantly clear that you have indeed spent some years on serious study of Indian languages, and it is more than encouraging to know that you are intent on continuing your work.

I also applaud your recognition that these discussions here, in degree often amateur and sometimes even heated, do often produce important findings, prompted by discovering the proper questions that must be asked.

As you have respectfully noted, the many published references of long venerated and famed authors do not usually hold new information, but I believe serving as key benchmarks for further study, they do often set us well on our way for further research.

I am also grateful for our discussions here, and thank you for your tenacity and patience in sharing the many details of your studies.

Now if we could just solve the mystery of what in the world 'garsoe' means on those perplexing unusual katars (jamadhars)

Like Jens, I find the nomenclature and linguistics interesting (actually quite fascinating) but ultimately it is the weapons' secrets I want to learn.