colonial spanish cup hilt rapier

[Camoga]

Hi guys,
First time I am posting, I would like some help in the id of this sword. I believe it to be a colonial cup hilt rapier. I bought it in Nicaragua but the dimensions I find a little odd.

3in Handle
24in Blade
4.5in Bell guard
2.7in Grip
30in Entire length of sword

Any info is greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Samuel Montealegre[FONT=Arial Black][SIZE=6][COLOR=Silver]

[Jim McDougall]

This is indeed a Spanish colonial style cuphilt sword, not rapier though. It is an 'arming' sword used by military forces and these seem to be munitions grade weapons used in these Caribbean and Central and South American regions. It is generally held these were of mid 17th into 18th century, and of course recalled the famed Spanish cuphilt rapiers.


This example appears to have a Solingen type blade of 18th c form, and the sword itself seems to have been perhaps acid cleaned and refurbished. The pommel in brass seems atypical for these. In colonial settings these swords remained in use for long periods even generations.

These are always intriguing and with a certain rugged charm to them.

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, Samuel .
You are right in that the dimensions of your sword are odd ... even critical.
It has surely been modified, probably salvaged from different origins. Apart from the bowl guard which, despite being also a small one, is not totally uncommon, all other sections, blade included, look like they would only fit a kid's hands.
Brass pommel and ferrules would also be mysterious components.
What is the grip made of, Samuel ... horn?

[Jim McDougall]

In looking again at the rather miniscule dimensions of the grip, that does seem to negate actual functionality as would be intended with a sword. While I don't always consider the childs sword explanation, I know there are many instances of such weapons intended for young boys in various cultures, but unsure of this case here.
Naturally there are a number of possible explanations, but it seems that a 'parade' or ceremonial/ theatrical case might be plausible. In certain religious and traditional events this could be a sword worn as a kind of prop, while never actually being wielded.

[fernando]

Mind you Jim, i was not objectively proposing this sword was modified to serve a youngster, but trying to give a perceptional idea of its reduced dimensions in a relative manner.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Mind you Jim, i was not objectively proposing this sword was modified to serve a youngster, but trying to give a perceptional idea of its reduced dimensions in a relative manner.

I understand, what I said was that I had not considered that possibility as I had not noticed how small the size was and simply noting that there were indeed cases in some cultures which did have swords for youngsters.
I thought I had expressed that as a viable observation.


It seems in South America there are a number of traditional ceremonies which recognize the Spanish colonial heritage and costumes are worn by characters on processions or parades. I am not a cultural expert on these countries but it 'seems' I had seen such events in travel type excerpts.


In these kinds of anomalies all we can do is try to surmise what their use or intent was, and in that situation pretty much all possibilities can be considered.

[Camoga]

Wow, Jim and Fernando you guys do not disappoint.
The reason I posted on this website was because of your many informative posts.
I bought the sword about 7yrs ago and have had it on display. Please do not get mad at me, I was the one who tried my hand on restoring the piece since I have no plans on selling it and was trying to find some id mark on the blade (and make it look gorgeous of course). In 1998 we a massive landslide near where I live and the person who came to my house selling said the it found it near the there. obviously I have my doubts on how they obtained the sword but did not want to pass up on the opportunity sincer I am a fencer (sport not thief Haha).
Fernando I am not sure about the grip to me I assumed it was made out of wood but now that you say horn you might be right as to the way it is peeling off.

Once again that you guys for your input.
Samuel

[midelburgo]

You can try olive oil to stop the horn grip peeling.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by midelburgo

You can try olive oil to stop the horn grip peeling.

That's good to know .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Camoga

Wow, Jim and Fernando you guys do not disappoint.
The reason I posted on this website was because of your many informative posts.
I bought the sword about 7yrs ago and have had it on display. Please do not get mad at me, I was the one who tried my hand on restoring the piece since I have no plans on selling it and was trying to find some id mark on the blade (and make it look gorgeous of course). In 1998 we a massive landslide near where I live and the person who came to my house selling said the it found it near the there. obviously I have my doubts on how they obtained the sword but did not want to pass up on the opportunity sincer I am a fencer (sport not thief Haha).
Fernando I am not sure about the grip to me I assumed it was made out of wood but now that you say horn you might be right as to the way it is peeling off.

Once again that you guys for your input.
Samuel

Samuel, Im glad you posted this and gave us the opportunity to discuss it here. Thank you for the kind note, and Fernando and I have been 'at the fence' (study of cuphilts, not the back yard conversation......touche'!! for about 20+ years now.....so really appreciate this.

While this is clearly a composite, it is reworked with genuine components being used...and these colonial cuphilts themselves are extremely rare. What you have is actually an item with great history in the components which have continued in an extended history of some sort beyond the working life of the original/host weapon.