Indian Whotsit for comment:

Jens Nordlunde · 1st December 2018, 09:23 PM

I am really glad the dealer thought it was a sword - help the rest of us collectors to recognise a sword when we see one:-).

I would love to see it cleaned, but I agree with Ariel that is most likely is a khanda, and the hilt is Mughal 17th century, unless the blade has been changed.
This does not mean that the hilt and the blade were 'born' together, but they could have been.

kronckew · 3rd December 2018, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I am really glad the dealer thought it was a sword - help the rest of us collectors to recognise a sword when we see one:-).

...

They did manage to add 'Antique' to the front as further guidance, the full description was thus even more helpful, that pinned it down a lot.

Full description was two words, 'Antique sword' nothing else.

Kmaddock · 3rd December 2018, 05:41 PM

The worse the description the better I find, as less chance of it being found from internet searches

I got a scissors katar that was labeled as
"farm implement, possibly for shearing sheep"
The auctioneer was shocked when I paid the 15 euro, someone bid me from the opening price of 10!!

I reckon we could have a thread on "Badly labeled auction lots"

I love the sword congratulations on pulling it out of obscurity.

Regards

ken
PS just realised it is in my avatar in my sons hand

kronckew · 3rd December 2018, 06:14 PM

I have a rather nice presentation high status burmese fighting dha that the vendor (an older lady) was told by her son was a worthless 'Egyptian machete'. I told her what it ws after winning the ebay auction, she said she was going to kill him. Good thing she'd already posted the sword, she might have used it

It's not only "Caveat Emptor", but also "Caveat Venditor".

I seem to recall we discussed 'Worst vendor descriptions' here on the forum in the past.

ariel · 4th December 2018, 03:38 AM

Regretfully, poor descriptions are going the way of Dodo:-((((

Sellers use e-bay and Google images for information more and more..... inconsiderate bastards!
The Fat Fingers ( a tool for finding misspelled names, like “ samsir”, “ sashqua” )
also lost most of its value. These days one needs a lot of good books to learn small signs of interesting details.

But miracles still happen.

kronckew · 5th December 2018, 07:42 PM

Item arrived late this afternoon from Isle of Mann, Only paid them Tues. Must have made all the connections perfectly, came in thru Bristol, just south of me

Anyhow, I am a happy chappy. blade is basically fine, a little surface rust, the auction picture is very misleading. No major pitting evident. pommel disk a bit wobbly, the 'horn' is solid tho, as is the rest of the grip. The blade is a bit flexible, distal tapered, Single edged, narrow fuller along the spine, and a wider one on the centre line. Tip is sharp, rounded. there is a distinct raised straight yelman about 6 in., sharp, as is the rest of the blade. NO nicks in the field sharp edge.

Obvious markings are three circles with centre dots in a triangle near the end of the tri-lobed languet on both sides. The two side lobes of the languet end have centre holes and the un-holed centre lobe has a small spire. oddly, the yelman has a single dotted circle stamp either side right near the spine juncture. The yelman is only about an eight of an inch higher than the flat spine. A bit of elbow grease with scotchbrite and this warhorse would be ready to fight another war. Grip is essentially quite comfortable in a hammer grip, Or even more with a finger over the guard. There is a rough patch on the lower cross guard, and a corresponding patch on the pommel disk where obviously a flat finger bow had been, about a half in wide. It's being missing is likely why the disk moves a bit.

It looks an awful lot like this blade is Wootz as well!

Pictures to follow when I clean her up a bit.

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2018, 09:05 PM

From the Isle of Mann!!!!! Now that's an unusual neighborhood for this to be in.
This has every appearance of a Rajput weapon in my thinking, the canted stem very much as often found on the Khanda hilt (or firangi). It seems these pierced langets are something seen in the northwest, often into Afghan regions. The Rajputs are of course known for their use of both the tulwar and khanda. The amalgamation of both forms as seen here may explain the unusual character of this wonderfully static piece.

Here I would point out that Scottish units in the British Army were quite well represented in India during the Raj (I have seen photos of Indian figures in native regiments in Khyber regions with Scottish basket hilts). It would be tempting to consider the unusual provenance of this clearly untouched Indian sword may suggest it could have been a 'bringback' from a soldier in one of these Scottish units in the 19th c. Often these kinds of things remain in estates for generations.

Nicely done Wayne.......now we have this stately old warrior for posterity and it may have stories to tell us

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1st December 2018, 09:23 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I am really glad the dealer thought it was a sword - help the rest of us collectors to recognise a sword when we see one:-). I would love to see it cleaned, but I agree with Ariel that is most likely is a khanda, and the hilt is Mughal 17th century, unless the blade has been changed. This does not mean that the hilt and the blade were 'born' together, but they could have been.

3rd December 2018, 05:41 PM	#3
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	The worse the description the better I find, as less chance of it being found from internet searches I got a scissors katar that was labeled as "farm implement, possibly for shearing sheep" The auctioneer was shocked when I paid the 15 euro, someone bid me from the opening price of 10!! I reckon we could have a thread on "Badly labeled auction lots" I love the sword congratulations on pulling it out of obscurity. Regards ken PS just realised it is in my avatar in my sons hand

3rd December 2018, 06:14 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	I have a rather nice presentation high status burmese fighting dha that the vendor (an older lady) was told by her son was a worthless 'Egyptian machete'. I told her what it ws after winning the ebay auction, she said she was going to kill him. Good thing she'd already posted the sword, she might have used it It's not only "Caveat Emptor", but also "Caveat Venditor". I seem to recall we discussed 'Worst vendor descriptions' here on the forum in the past.

4th December 2018, 03:38 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Regretfully, poor descriptions are going the way of Dodo:-(((( Sellers use e-bay and Google images for information more and more..... inconsiderate bastards! The Fat Fingers ( a tool for finding misspelled names, like “ samsir”, “ sashqua” ) also lost most of its value. These days one needs a lot of good books to learn small signs of interesting details. But miracles still happen.

5th December 2018, 07:42 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Item arrived late this afternoon from Isle of Mann, Only paid them Tues. Must have made all the connections perfectly, came in thru Bristol, just south of me Anyhow, I am a happy chappy. blade is basically fine, a little surface rust, the auction picture is very misleading. No major pitting evident. pommel disk a bit wobbly, the 'horn' is solid tho, as is the rest of the grip. The blade is a bit flexible, distal tapered, Single edged, narrow fuller along the spine, and a wider one on the centre line. Tip is sharp, rounded. there is a distinct raised straight yelman about 6 in., sharp, as is the rest of the blade. NO nicks in the field sharp edge. Obvious markings are three circles with centre dots in a triangle near the end of the tri-lobed languet on both sides. The two side lobes of the languet end have centre holes and the un-holed centre lobe has a small spire. oddly, the yelman has a single dotted circle stamp either side right near the spine juncture. The yelman is only about an eight of an inch higher than the flat spine. A bit of elbow grease with scotchbrite and this warhorse would be ready to fight another war. Grip is essentially quite comfortable in a hammer grip, Or even more with a finger over the guard. There is a rough patch on the lower cross guard, and a corresponding patch on the pommel disk where obviously a flat finger bow had been, about a half in wide. It's being missing is likely why the disk moves a bit. It looks an awful lot like this blade is Wootz as well! Pictures to follow when I clean her up a bit.

5th December 2018, 09:05 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	From the Isle of Mann!!!!! Now that's an unusual neighborhood for this to be in. This has every appearance of a Rajput weapon in my thinking, the canted stem very much as often found on the Khanda hilt (or firangi). It seems these pierced langets are something seen in the northwest, often into Afghan regions. The Rajputs are of course known for their use of both the tulwar and khanda. The amalgamation of both forms as seen here may explain the unusual character of this wonderfully static piece. Here I would point out that Scottish units in the British Army were quite well represented in India during the Raj (I have seen photos of Indian figures in native regiments in Khyber regions with Scottish basket hilts). It would be tempting to consider the unusual provenance of this clearly untouched Indian sword may suggest it could have been a 'bringback' from a soldier in one of these Scottish units in the 19th c. Often these kinds of things remain in estates for generations. Nicely done Wayne.......now we have this stately old warrior for posterity and it may have stories to tell us