Matchlock gun of Afghanistan?

[mahratt]

I would assume that what do I write am difficult to understand because of my bad English... But, I see that most of the participants understood me correctly.

No one in this thread claimed that matchlock corrado26 - Afghan matchlock. On the contrary all (including me) write that matchlock corrado26 - Indian.
Corrado in his first post suggested that his gun was from Afghanistan:

Originally Posted by corrado26

A friend of mine sent me these fotos asking me to help with an identification. I think it could be a piece from Afghanistan but am not sure. Thanks for help.
corrado26

Rick and I wrote that this matchlock could theoretically be used in Afghanistan (but not that it is made there) . Theoretically, because personally I, for example, have not seen exactly the same matchlocks like matchlock corrado26 in photographs and lithographs of the late 19th - early 20th century, which have Afghans with rifles. At the same time, the possibility that such a matchlock could be used in Afghanistan cannot be completely denied. Because matchlocks from Sindh and India were used in Afghanistan (this is an objective reality, proved in this topic). At the same time, no one disputes that they were made in Sindh and India. Hope I wrote understandable

By the way, it has already been written that rattan fibers were used far beyond the range of the plant from which these fibers are obtained.

Was the matchlock, we are discussing, manufactured in South India? Yes, most likely.

Let's read the posts, which that others write, more carefully.

Best Regards. Dima

P.S. Rick, I hope you liked the photo?

[ariel]

I am glad you are finally beginning to step away from Afghanistan and Sindh and agree with my original suggestion of South India.

Meanwhile, please check my recent post: a relatively large number of similar guns were indisputably attributed to Indore.

So just for the fun of it, we may want to choose between these two possibilities. It's nice to be able to narrow the field.

[mahratt]

I see, that you still do not understand what the topic is about Re-read the topic from the very beginning. So far it seems that you read only your own posts

And for now I'll put an interesting illustration:

[ariel]

Mahratt,
I can see that you are becoming progressively more agitated and, as often happens with you when your assertions are disputed, more and more sarcastic and even offensive.
Let me reassure you: there is nothing personal on my end. I am not into any firearms, and the current topic just randomly piqued my interest. I have no dog in this fight and couldn't care less where this gun is from. It is just a detective story, no more.
So please calm down and try to be more polite.

Thanks for the pic. Would be nice to know what part of the world we are talking about and the origin of this gun. I recall that only 2 hours ago you considered the Corrado's gun to be of South Indian origin, " most likely".

Please refer to my note about Sandringham collection: its attributions are ironclad.

[mahratt]

Ariel, please specify which of my messages was sarcastic or offensive? I hope it will be easy for you to quote my words, which in your opinion are offensive?

You write a lot of words in this thread, but unfortunately, less and less of your words refer specifically to the topic of discussion..... By the way, I noticed an interesting trend))) Almost all topics in which I write here on the forum, suddenly cause you to "randomly interest." ))))

I am very glad that you are interested in the image I brought. This is a lithography of 1843, which is made from the watercolor of an English officer (from an album dedicated to the costumes of the peoples of Afghanistan). Apparently you noticed the similarity of matchlock corrado26 and the rifle on lithography? Is not it?
But, notice, I did not say anywhere that this illustration shows the origin of the matchlock corrado26.

As for the "polite", I'm sure the moderators will make a remark to me, if I'm "not polite". Or did I miss something and you became a moderator?

[mahratt]

By the way, maybe someone will think that the artist just painted matchlock is not realistic. And maybe someone will say that in fact the artist was thinking of portraying an ordinary Afghan jezail.
But, it's not. Pay attention to the following fragment of lithography from the same album:

[Robert]

Gentleman, The tone of the responses will become less aggressive and an atmosphere of decorum shall be maintained or I will be forced to lock this thread and ban the offending parties. Final warning.


Robert

[bhushan_lawate]

Hi --

A couple of clearer pics of the inscription and we can reasonably put the doubt to rest as it appears to have the name of the place/owner.

The script is Devanagari (used for Sanskrit, Hindi & Marathi languages) and the way the dot marks are - it could be attributed to the North West or Central states of India. -- so Indore could definitely be a possibility.

Also, important to note the depiction of "Ta" which is a short for "Taluka" or "District" if the legend is indeed "Ta" then the following word will be the name of the place and it will potentially also mean that the inscription is from a later date than the gun itself as "Districts" are a gift of the British Raj..


I'm sure there are more informed and knowledgeable forumites and we can all continue to learn as our fellow collectors acquire newer and newer "Old" collectibles...!!!

[mahratt]

bhushan_lawate, thanks for the info!

[David R]

Regarding the rattan binding, personally I think that it is often used after more conventional capucines have been removed. If the originals were silver, either as simple capucines, or as "saddles" under leather or rawhide then I think they would have been removed as soon as the gun ceased to be used.

[Pukka Bundook]

That makes sense, David.

Our big problem with all Indian arms, is that they tended to travel a lot, as war booty and later as trade items, so where a gun started out and where it was found and listed by say Lord Eggerton, can be two very different things.
Plus, since Eggerton's time, they can have shifted yet again, and no telling how many times!

As an example, I have a couple of matchlock barrels that fit the description in Eggerton as those found at Oude.
Now, Does that mean my barrels Come from Oude?
Or, bigger question;
Does this mean that those found at Oude by Eggerton were actually Made in that area, or does it mean merely that the barrels happened to be in Oude when he found them? (And made elsewhere?)
No, I am not trying to say it is hopeless trying to find where Indian arms come from, but we must not work off a false basis, and that means an awful lot of digging!
A very interesting arm in the OP....and well worth the digging!

Going back to my Oude barrels;
One of them had been very badly stocked up in Afghanistan, with saddle cappucines and all. Oude to the Afghan lands is quite a hike.

[ariel]

David:

Interesting. So, do I understand correctly, that in your opinion rattan bindings are a sign of a “decommissioned” gun?

PB:

I fully agree. We see it with swords, daggers, blades, handles. The often used example of the Adoni arsenal is telling. Finding weapons from one well-defined area far away from their origin is rather commonplace. Internecine wars, invasions, trophies, trade, mass plunder all played roles in this “ transplantation”.


The attribution should follow their ethnic/ locality features rather than place of their usage. Egerton had a yataghan placed among the Nepalese weapons, a classical non sequitur.


Afghanistan is especially tough in this regard: Afghanis invaded India proper on many occasions, served as mercenaries in Indian armies and bought a lot of stuff there. Wars between Maratha and Afghan armies were grandiose and mutual invasions too multiple to remember. Not taking it into account may confuse historical assessment of their weapons which is a raison d’etre of this Forum.

[rickystl]

Hello All

Well, this Thread has become an interesting conversation.

Mahratt: Thank you so much for the photo of the Sindi warriors with their percussion Jazails. First time I've seen this photo. Thank you !! As a curious side note: Every Sindh origin gun I've seen is either matchlock or percussion variation. While somewhere in Tirri's or Elgood's books there is one example of a Sindh gun in flintlock, they seem quite rare. You just never see them. It seems Sindh skipped the flintlock period for the most part, similar to Japan.

Butt Stock Design: It seems the different regions under the Ottoman Empire each had their own "general" preference in gun design. But as many, if not most of these guns were made on an individual (non-production) basis, I'm sure individual customer tastes were included. This, along with the common use and reuse of gun parts and the mix of cultures can sometimes make it difficult to pinpoint the original origin of some of these Ethno guns.

Corrodo's Gun: The barrel design replicates the general design of barrels made for Toradors in Northern and Central India. The swell at the breech and muzzle ends, the placement of the front and rear sights, the serpentine/trigger assembly, and the pan design are all clues of at least the barrel's origins. And the barrel may easily be from an earlier gun and re-used. The barrel is probably damascus but you can't tell from the extra heavy patina. Note the priming pan lacks a cover. But many were made this way.
Butt Stock: I note the butt stock curves downward, and then straight. But the circumference is still squareish like the Toradors. The Sindi and Afghan stocks curve downward and back up for fit under the armpit for carry.

So all this evidence tells me this gun was made in India - somewhere. LOL
The gun is a bit less than munitions grade. I think this gun was made for an individual for the least possible cost of material and labor, with what ever reusable parts the gunsmith had on hand at the time, including the use of the rattan bands. This would not at all be uncommon. Just my best guess on the gun in question.

Rick

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,

The stock carving of the gun in the O.P. also say India, rather than Afghanistan. (On underside ahead of the breech.)
Eggerton has one very similar, to both this one and the one Mahratt shows, and has them down as found in Indore.
(See my post above about origins! LOL!!)

Ariel,
Rattan could have been used originally, but we see many matchlocks with marks where bindings or cappucines Used to be, and I think as all kinds of bindings work, that it comes down to what was available, or was fashionable or was attractive to the present owner. I may be missing something though!

Best,
Richard.

[rickystl]

Hi Richard

As soon as I submitted my post, I saw your post. LOL Same brain I guess. LOL

I agree with all your comments. And as to origin, OK Indore. That makes me double glad you joined this Thread.

As you mention, we've seen these guns barrels bound to the stocks with a wide variety of different material. Likely for the reasons you mention.

I notice the bore in the barrel appears to have seen heavy usage. Maybe more so than the rest of the gun's condition. Which was another reason why I thought the barrel was re-stocked at some latter point.

Another curiosity to me: The one illistration posted above shows the use of matchlocks with attached bi-pods. The only guns I've seen with this feature are of Afghan origin. Wheather matchlock or flintlock. There may be a Torador with one, but I've never seen one.

Rick

[rickystl]

The stock carving of the gun in the O.P. also say India, rather than Afghanistan.


Hi Richard

Yes, that was one point I was trying to make. Much agreed.

Rick

[ariel]

Rick,

Thanks for your input.
As to bi-pods: they could have been attached sometime during the working life of the imported Indian ( Indore?) gun, couldn’t they?

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by ariel

Rick,

Thanks for your input.
As to bi-pods: they could have been attached sometime during the working life of the imported Indian ( Indore?) gun, couldn’t they?

Hi Ariel

I'm sure that's possible, even likely. There may even be examples, I just haven't seen any. The Afghans seemed to have a preference for shooting their long guns from bipods or resting on rocks on cliffs, or other means of support.
Which would work well since their long guns tended to have front-heavy barrels.

Rick

[mahratt]

Hello All

Thank you for the interesting discussion.

Dima

P.S. Rick, by the way, I'm sure that you know that the Afghans did not always use bipods when firing from traditional guns:

[fernando]

Originally Posted by rickystl

... Another curiosity to me: The one illistration posted above shows the use of matchlocks with attached bi-pods. The only guns I've seen with this feature are of Afghan origin. Wheather matchlock or flintlock. There may be a Torador with one, but I've never seen one...

Just a silly note, Rick ...
When you say that the only guns you have seen with bipod features are of Afghan origin, you are only establishing a comparison between such country and India and not from elsewhere, like China and Tibet, where matchlocks with bipods may be seen ...

[ariel]

Caucasus, too.
Somehow, it seems that bipods were predominantly used in a mountainous terrain.

Or is it a correlation implying causation?:-)

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,

(When you dropping in to see us again???)
Re bi-pods;
If we look at the miniature paintings from Moghul India, we see plenty of representations of bi-pods. I think it would be the first thing to get chucked though, especially if they were being brought 'home' by returning folk stationed in India, such as soldiers, diplomats/officers. (Too unwieldy to bother with!)
As we see quite a few with a scar on the forestock where we presume a front swivel may have attached, maybe this was the mounting point for a bi-pod?

See illustrations below;
Very interesting story behind two of these pics. Have more, but can't find the ones I want! Will attach them later.

Very best old sport.
Richard.

[Pukka Bundook]

One more photos of bi-pod, being used by Shah Jahan

A "bipod " that can move by itself, LOL!

I had a photo of Shah Jahan using a proper bi-pod, a well known drawing, but I can't find it.

Richard.

PS,
I think the"Bi-pods " name is "Deafy".

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by ariel

Rick,

Thanks for your input.
As to bi-pods: they could have been attached sometime during the working life of the imported Indian ( Indore?) gun, couldn’t they?

Hi Ariel

I'm sure these bi-pods were made as a seperate accessory. So they could have been added earlier or later in the gun's life.
A few years ago a fellow Forum member sent me a PM with a heads-up about an upcoming auction. There was a bi-pod (only) going up for bid. It looked Afghan made and was in very good original condition. It was unique in that it had a hand forged "U" shape clamp that would allow the shooter to attach or detach the bipod within seconds. This would be much preferred versus drilling a hole in the forestock to attach the bi-pod. But I didn't see the PM till it was too late to register. DARN. Wonder who the lucky winner was ? LOL


Rick

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Hello All

Thank you for the interesting discussion.

Dima

P.S. Rick, by the way, I'm sure that you know that the Afghans did not always use bipods when firing from traditional guns:

Hi Mahratt

Thank you once again for the great photo !!! I don't have this one either. Great pic. Thank you.
A bit off the subject here: Viewing these original photos and illistrations, I can't help notice the wide spread use of the tulwar sword. My knowledge of blades is very limited. But it seems that the tulwar must have been one of the most popular swords ever used. (?) I see them everywhere. LOL

Rick

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by fernando

Just a silly note, Rick ...
When you say that the only guns you have seen with bipod features are of Afghan origin, you are only establishing a comparison between such country and India and not from elsewhere, like China and Tibet, where matchlocks with bipods may be seen ...

Hi Fernando

Yes, I should have been more clear. I was refering to Afghan versus Indian.
Yes, the use of bi-pods in China, Southest Asia, etc. with their matchlocks almost seem the norm.
As the illistrations show, the bi-pods were also used with the Toradors. I've just never been able to personally view/examine one. But hope to one day.
Over the years there seems to be a number of the Jazails that turn up with these bi-pods attached. Or, as Richard mentions, you see the extra hole in the forestock that would have allowed it's attachment.

Rick

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

One more photos of bi-pod, being used by Shah Jahan

A "bipod " that can move by itself, LOL!

I had a photo of Shah Jahan using a proper bi-pod, a well known drawing, but I can't find it.

Richard.

PS,
I think the"Bi-pods " name is "Deafy".

Hi Richard

LOL!!! Yes, the permanantly portable bi-pod. Even has two moveable legs. LOL Thanks for the illistrations. Very neat.

(I "think" I will be back come early Spring next year)

Rick

[Likhari]

Gentlemen !

The inscription reads :

Raja Jaipur - Tahsil Baswa - Number 187.

Baswa was an administrative subdivision(Tahsil) in the Dausa Nizamat which was a part of Jaipur State in Rajputana, India. It is currently located in the State of Rajasthan in the NorthWest of India.

Hope this helps.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Mahratt

Thank you once again for the great photo !!! I don't have this one either. Great pic. Thank you.
A bit off the subject here: Viewing these original photos and illistrations, I can't help notice the wide spread use of the tulwar sword. My knowledge of blades is very limited. But it seems that the tulwar must have been one of the most popular swords ever used. (?) I see them everywhere. LOL

Rick

Hello Rick!

I'm glad that you liked the photo.
You're absolutely right. Many believe that the Afghans used the Pulowars. And it is true. But the Tulwars were also widely distributed. By the way, in Afghanistan , used, and Tulwars made by local craftsmen, and Tulwars from India.

Dima

Originally Posted by Likhari

Gentlemen !

The inscription reads :

Raja Jaipur - Tahsil Baswa - Number 187.

Baswa was an administrative subdivision(Tahsil) in the Dausa Nizamat which was a part of Jaipur State in Rajputana, India. It is currently located in the State of Rajasthan in the NorthWest of India.

Hope this helps.

Thank you! It is very interesting

Dima

[ariel]

Afghani swords are interesting in their own right and serve as a reminder of a mix of site-specific and generic “ Indian” traditions, just like their guns,

Pulwars have features reminding of both S. Indian ( cup-like closed pommel) and Persian ( down-turned quillons with “ dragon heads”) features. Their blades are often very thick and narrow, some have peculiar fuller structure ( usually one or more parallel fullers by the spine interrupted with plain areas, often with a box-like element close to the handle) and a rivet in the quillon block in case of Afghani tulwars.

But, as Elgood has instructed us, swords from the Indo-Persian area need to be viewed blade and handle separately: most of them have been rehilted more than once. An amusing example of it is the fact that Indian swords in the Victoria & Albert museum, collected early in the 19th century, often have mismatched combinations locality and age-wise. But in the Wallace collection they all match perfectly, likely because after ~1870 when the collection was assembled most sumptuous swords were made in the royal workshops as gifts and souvenirs.


I have a couple of mismatched Afghani- Indian examples, but we are in the midst of a thunderstorm and it is too dark for photography.

If anybody is interested, I can do it one day upon request.