A 19th century naval dirk from Eastern Europe??

Tim Simmons · 6th April 2006, 08:15 PM

Son of a gun!!! That just would not do in the Royal Navy

"Bligh" came from the ranks, not a gentleman but a bloody good sailor.

Rick · 7th April 2006, 06:26 AM

Maybe it's from our Damned Colonial Navy then Tim .

Remember Java vs Constitution ?

/Let's not talk about Shannon vs Chesapeake though .

Jim McDougall · 8th April 2006, 04:25 AM

In looking at this example posted by N2S I am inclined to think of this weapon as a dirk for a naval officer, and although not necessarily British EIC as suggested by Valihun, it does very much seem British. After the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt the mameluke form sabres did become popular with British as well as French officers, and the distinctive Ottoman hilt forms in particular. In the early 19th century there were a great deal of military outfitters in British occupied areas of the Ottoman sphere, especially in Egypt and Aden in Arabia. It would seem that such a dirk may have been fashioned for sale to British naval officers near the close of the Georgian period, however these were strictly for dress wear. Gilkerson in "Boarders Away" (p.115) notes that "..no battle use of a curved naval dirk is known, and it cannot be considered as ever intended for anything other than dress wear".
The curved blade in dirk size according to Gilkerson (op.cit.) was inefficient at best, noting that the true fighting dirk was straight bladed and for of course, the thrust.
Annis & May ("Swords for Sea Service" p.75-76) note also the apparant disregard for curved dirks as weapons, but interestingly do note that there are a number of them with curved blades and 'mameluke' pommels in the National Maritime Museum in England.
It would seem that while the dirk was of course known in other European navies, the mounts were most likely with zoomorphic pommels reflecting those typically seen on officers dress swords.

These are simply some observations from standard references that may pertain to the example shown, however the blade seems to be quite substantial and quite as deadly as any curved Oriental dagger whether intended for combat or not. In any case, a very attractive weapon.

Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 8th April 2006, 07:07 AM

Jim,
If you are calling these books "standard references", I dread to think what is the meaning of "obscure" and "esoteric" in your vocabulary!
Where did you come from with these sources? Your library must be a treasure trove! And, obviously, you read this stuff... I am VERY impressed!

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6th April 2006, 08:15 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Son of a gun!!! That just would not do in the Royal Navy "Bligh" came from the ranks, not a gentleman but a bloody good sailor.

7th April 2006, 06:26 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Maybe it's from our Damned Colonial Navy then Tim . Remember Java vs Constitution ? /Let's not talk about Shannon vs Chesapeake though .

8th April 2006, 04:25 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	In looking at this example posted by N2S I am inclined to think of this weapon as a dirk for a naval officer, and although not necessarily British EIC as suggested by Valihun, it does very much seem British. After the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt the mameluke form sabres did become popular with British as well as French officers, and the distinctive Ottoman hilt forms in particular. In the early 19th century there were a great deal of military outfitters in British occupied areas of the Ottoman sphere, especially in Egypt and Aden in Arabia. It would seem that such a dirk may have been fashioned for sale to British naval officers near the close of the Georgian period, however these were strictly for dress wear. Gilkerson in "Boarders Away" (p.115) notes that "..no battle use of a curved naval dirk is known, and it cannot be considered as ever intended for anything other than dress wear". The curved blade in dirk size according to Gilkerson (op.cit.) was inefficient at best, noting that the true fighting dirk was straight bladed and for of course, the thrust. Annis & May ("Swords for Sea Service" p.75-76) note also the apparant disregard for curved dirks as weapons, but interestingly do note that there are a number of them with curved blades and 'mameluke' pommels in the National Maritime Museum in England. It would seem that while the dirk was of course known in other European navies, the mounts were most likely with zoomorphic pommels reflecting those typically seen on officers dress swords. These are simply some observations from standard references that may pertain to the example shown, however the blade seems to be quite substantial and quite as deadly as any curved Oriental dagger whether intended for combat or not. In any case, a very attractive weapon. Best regards, Jim

8th April 2006, 07:07 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, If you are calling these books "standard references", I dread to think what is the meaning of "obscure" and "esoteric" in your vocabulary! Where did you come from with these sources? Your library must be a treasure trove! And, obviously, you read this stuff... I am VERY impressed!