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#1 |
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I found this three part video lecture that is focussed on Malay keris and Peninsula nomenclature. They may seem a bit dry in their presentation, but i find the lecture interesting because it seem very much a Peninsula perspective and i like hearing the alternative names for keris and keris parts as well as the spoken language and hearing the words aloud (something you never get just reading books and forums.)
If you like the name game this is a must for you and there seems to be some good information along the way. Since my focus tends to be more on Jawa/Bali/Madura/Sumatra a bit of this is new information for me. Hopefully others will find value in it. I have not watched all the way through yet (hope i don't regret that) so i cannot fully attest to perfect accuracy here (nor would i know for sure in some cases) and i trust there is nothing offensive to be found within, but now that the links ate posted i can find this easily to finish watching. Hopefully it will raise some discussion questions amongst the members as well as, perhaps, some answers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74gPl4RA81c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PzZldHywSY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZPRScCAi5c |
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#2 |
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Thank you for posting this David.
I have watched it all, there is nothing offensive in it if we accept the generally accepted idea of what could be offensive, but there are some rather irritating comments, and one comment in particular is likely to cause a degree of offense to some Javanese keris enthusiasts. I prefer to reserve further comment on the contents of this lecture. |
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#3 |
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As i stated Alan, i only watched a little bit into each of these to determine the direction of the lectures so i did not see anything offensive. I'll watch them completely through today and see if i need to delete anything.
But coming from the Peninsula perspective i would not be surprised if there is information in here that runs against the grain of common Javanese keris understanding. ![]() |
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#4 |
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OK Alan, i made my way all the way through. I can certainly see how aspects of this might come across as annoying to Javanese keris enthusiasts since this entire lecture seems to disregard the Javanese origins of the keris in general and speaks of it purely from a Malay perspective. We have often had conversations about belief as it applies to the keris and i think that without a doubt their are many keris enthusiasts who would accept this lecture word for word. For me, and no doubt yourself, there is much to debate in this lecture, but it seems important to me that we present all cultural perspectives of the keris and this is most certainly one of them.
Last edited by David; 14th August 2018 at 04:59 PM. |
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#5 |
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I watched the entire videos and agree that there are some aspects which are questionable like the origin of the kris, blade poisoning, etc. but I enjoyed the information about the various types of Malay krisses and hits especially, which cannot be found easily in any book written in English language except Gardner (but incomplete). I also noticed that the lecturer mentions the warangan treatment of the blades with arsenic, contrary to some statements made earlier in the Forum.
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#6 |
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If anyone asks me, my stand and perception is that I always felt that keris is originated from Indonesia and spread to other regions in SEAsia etc.
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#7 | |
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#9 |
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I have not watched the the vids except for the first few minutes of the first one where he mentioned about the keris spreading from malaysia to the rest of the 'nusantara' and I stopped there, so I can not make much comments. One shouldn't take the speaker's words as gospel of course, and it is quite possible that he made inadvertant mistake in term of properly articulating what he really meant?
This is because just about everybody in Malaysia ( and the speaker himself I believe ) agree that Keris originated from Indonesia. the speaker is a farly well known keris enthusiast and have written 2 small books on keris which are rather cursory and general in my opinion. One of them is "Keris Melayu Semenanjung: Rupa bentuk keris mengikut negeri . (trans: Malay peninsula keris: forms according to states) As to warangan, my belief is that it is Indonesian (and not even the whole regions) practice primarily. Even the word "warangan" is a borrowed word and does not appear in Malay. |
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#10 |
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This comment is only relevant to the word "warang" or "warangan".
The word appears in Wilkinson, compiled prior to 1900, it was a word in common usage in Malay at that time, but Wilkinson gives origin as Javanese. The word appears in Old Javanese and has several meanings, none of which relate to arsenic or realgar. It is actually an interesting word, which possibly deserves further research by historical linguists, the entries in Zoetmulder seem to raise some interesting possibilities:- a relationship to colour?, to illness?, to a keris scabbard (warangka)? It seems entirely possible that the application of the word to keris staining is something that might only have arisen in Modern Javanese, ie, since mid-17th century. |
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#11 |
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Malay is essentially a very simple language. Migrant workers from South India or Nepal for example can pick up the language within 3 months without any formal training course and merely by interacting with their fellow malay co workers.
A great majority of malay words are borrowed from other languages. Primarily from sanskrit and later from arabic when the people became muslims and in the modern era a lot of words are taken fro English such as bas (bus) gelas (glass) komputer (computer) etc...It is not inconcievable that warang/warangan has been adopted by the malay keris community since early days but this word is never used in other situations by general population and if you ask any malays who do not delve in keris , it is almost certain that he will not know the word. Having said that, and as an aside, it is to the great credit of Soekarno the late president of Indonesia who decided to use malay as the basis for 'bahasa Indonesia' and adopt it as the national language of Indonesia and bind the disparate people of Indonesia that speak all sorts of languages. |
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#12 | |
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However, with all information about the keris i think it is important not to allow what we might perceive as misinformation color the entire body of information we are viewing. I would recommend a complete viewing before forming any opinions on the over all value of the lecture. Again, i feel a lot of this was very basic information, but from a perspective i do not generally study, so i found valuable. Regarding warangan in Malay keris culture, we did have this discussion before and it does seem to me that some very strong evidence was presented there that warangan was known and applied to Malay keris at least as early as 1839 if we believe the account written by Newbold at that time in "Political and Statistical Account of the British Settlements in the Straits of Malacca (...)", 1839, quotation from a Malayan MS on Krisses and process of damasking.: "Political and Statistical Account of the British Settlements in the Straits of Malacca (...)", 1839, quotation from a Malayan MS on Krisses and process of damasking. "How to damask Krises. - Place on the blade a mixture of boiled rice, sulphur, and salt beat together, first taking the precaution to cover the edges of the weapon with a thin coat of virgin wax. After this has remained on seven days, the damask will have risen on surface; take the composition off, and immerse the blade in the water of a young cocoa-nut, or the juice of a pine-apple, for seven days longer, and wash it well with the juice of a sour lemon. After the rust has been cleared away, rub it with warangan (arsenic) dissolved in lime juice; wash it well with spring water; dry, and anoint it with a cocoa-nut oil." Other early examples pointing to this knowledge and use were also listed in a thread we had not to long ago. So while we can certainly see this word and process as something that is far more prevalent in Jawa, Bali, Madura and parts of Sumatra, it was certainly not unknown in parts of the Malay Peninsula. |
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#13 | |
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The good Professor mentions the mythical empu Sarah (unknown to me) from Majapahit as the originator of the kris pandai saras so he does not completely rule-out the Indonesian origin of the kris. And I am not able to fully understand what else he said about the origin of the kris (the translation is minimal, may be Green can confirm) so I give him the benefit of the doubt. Anyway it is clear that the Malay kris followed a separate development as compared to Java/ Madura/ Bali since several centuries, but with some Bugis influences in some areas. Regards ![]() |
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#14 | |
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Certainly once the keris was established in Malay areas it did indeed take its own route of development and developed its own terminology and customs. |
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#16 |
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Yes green, Malay is recognised as being a simple language, but in my experience, that simplicity only extends to the basic "Pasar Malay", or in my case "Pasar Indonesian". I learnt Indonesian as an adult, and I think it probably took me about 5 years to achieve a level of reasonable competency in Pasar Indonesian. I'm a slow learner, but in my own defence I must add that I found it almost impossible to learn in a classroom situation, and I learnt by writing and during my two and three monthly visits to Jawa & Bali. To move from Pasar Indonesian to the level suitable for official use, or for conversation in polite company, I think it probably took me about 20 years. I will say this:- Indonesian is far more simple than Italian, and infinitely more simple than English.
In fact, the dialect of Malay spoken in South East Sumatra was chosen as the foundation stone of national language, for the soon-to-be nation of Indonesia by the Indonesian Nationalist Movement in 1928. Sukarno as president did not choose Malay as the national language of Indonesia, but since he founded the PNI in 1927, it is likely that he was involved in the choice before he became president. The choice was a logical one, because low Malay, or Pasar Malay (as opposed to Classical or High Malay) had been the language of trade for a 1000 years or more across much of, if not all, SE Asia, and by some accounts, even further afield. It was the language used to spread Islam and Christianity in Jawa and the rest of the Archipelago. However, it is important to note that Bahasa Indonesia, ie, Indonesian, is a public language and the only official language, it is not used in the home, it is not used in colloquial exchanges, it is used in news broadcasts, nationally screened TV shows, official exchanges. In my experience, when ordinary people, as distinct from highly educated people, use Indonesian in Jawa, Bali, and Madura, the language that they use bears only a passing resemblance to Indonesian as we hear it in an official or public context. The language that these ordinary people call "Bahasa Indonesia" is so mixed with the other languages that these people speak, that it has become a dialect in its own right. Relative to the use of the word "warangan", it is as David has already advised, the word "warangan" does appear in 19th century literature relevant to use in Malay. I agree that it is a loan word from Javanese, but once a loan word comes into another language it becomes a part of the lexicon of that language. As for using the test of recognition of a word by a native speaker in order to endorse its place in a language, I regret that we cannot accept that argument. My native language is English, and although I am reasonably proficient in the use of English, there are numerous words that I do not recognise. Just because a word is a part of a technical jargon, that does not exclude it from inclusion in the main body of the language. |
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#17 |
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In respect of Empu Saras/Sarah.
There seems to be no mention of this person in the accepted documentation of the line of descent of Javanese empus to the time of Kartosuro. This documentation is:- "Silsilah Turun-temuruning Empu Tanah Jawi". Possibly Empu Saras/Sarah did come from Mojopahit, but perhaps the name used there was different. For Javanese people names can and do vary on a situational basis. |
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#18 |
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Jean,
Sorry, I don't feel very interested to view the whole videos. Even from the beginning I can see a few things that he said that I find questionable, so I don't think it's much value for me to view futher... Another case in point is when he mentioned that keris maker is called 'empu' in malaysia. This i quite disagree with. Empu like warangan are not terms you generally use in malaysia. He may have meant the term as it is used in Indonesia but he did not make it clear enough . David and Alan pointed out , warangan has been recorded to be used in Malaysia since as early 19th century... it may well be used by keris communities that have close association or much influenced by Java keris culture. But by and large it is foreign. Malays never use the the specific word empu for keris makers as far as I can tell, despite what the prof said in the early part of the vid. Actually we (malaysian malays) don't have a specific word for that as far as I can tell.We usually refer to them as tukang buat keris, tukang buat sarong, tukan buat hulu... all general terms with the word 'tukang' in front (tukang= maker). As to "Pandai Saras"... yes, we have words of mouth alleging that the original Pandai Saras originated from Jawa but like much of malay kerisology, we sadly don't have systematic and written documented primary information unlike the well documented and systematic kerisology of Jawa. Or if they exist they have been lost or hidden somewhere in overseas universities and museums? |
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#19 |
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Green,
Why don't you write a good book or articles about the Malay krisses? These are awaited by the collectors and would be very positively received I am sure. Regards ![]() |
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#20 | |
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Last edited by David; 17th August 2018 at 01:32 PM. |
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#21 | |
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sorry if you take it that way... when i drive a proton saga (malaysian local car) and complain , by your argument i should make my own car ![]() ![]() |
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#22 | |
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#23 | |
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I must also admit that as a kris book author I know the efforts to be undertaken and the many uncertainties faced for producing a decent result which is always subject to criticism so I tend to be tolerant with others's work even if I do not fully agree with their descriptions or opinions. After all, the main items of contention (empu definition, use of the warangan term, poisonous blades, and the possible misinterpretation about the origin of the kris) are not that critical IMO. About the last aspect, the lecturer insists that some Malay krisses are heavily influenced by the Bugis, who are Indonesians... Regards ![]() Last edited by Jean; 18th August 2018 at 08:17 AM. |
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#24 | |
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