Enamel hilt - age and place

Jim McDougall · 2nd April 2006, 09:11 PM

Thanks very much guys for the kind words, and thanks for posting as I kind of wanted to keep this thread going!! I had never really paid much attention to the enamel decoration as it was so far out of my league I never really saw purpose in trying to study it. Thats why I am glad that Jens sparked this interesting subject, and now I can at least understand cloissone vs. champleve, up to now just fancy terms to me!

Brian & Tim,
I have heard of the Baden-Powell book long ago, but pretty much gave up trying to find it. It did seem to have distinct promise as he was as noted contemporary with Hendley et al. I have long said that while these early writers' works have obviously been considerably superceded by many recent discoveries and more recent research, they serve as valuable benchmarks as examples of opinions and observations of the times. One can never underestimate original research that often may inadvertantly hold clues to completely forgotten lines of investigation.
BTW, I was once a Boy Scout too!!! On my honor I did my best!!!

I was incredibly pleased when years later I found that Baden-Powell the India researcher and Baden-Powell the Scouts founder were one in the same.

Battara,
I'm glad you're planning to approach the enamelling process, it really does sound exciting and challenging! I found lots of key information far too technical for me to comprehend in the Encyclopedia Brittanica. Perhaps checking into that resource might offer some insight that could be helpful in your project....I hope you'll keep us up to date on progress!! I always envy you guys with these crafting skills!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd April 2006, 04:26 PM

Hi Jim, thank you for your answer. The Sanskrit letter on the back of the blade stands for Kha, Ka or K. The reason why I think it could come from an armoury is, that I have seen another blade with the same mark but with number 67 on it, and I doubt that a weapon smith would have numbered the blades he made.

The enamel work as such is fascinating, when you imagine the crude tools they had, the furnaces they used, and the fantastic work they made. The fact that many could not make the past they used, and had to buy it from Luchnow, without getting the same results must be due to the heating – or maybe to what they used for heating, so maybe the smoke could make a difference how the colours showed in the end.

The underside of the disc is a puzzle, and although I am no specialist I don’t think it has been made by the same one who made the rest, not only due to the colours, but I think the whole design looks different. But why was this very nice, but different, decoration ‘hidden’ under the disc, a place where no one but the owner would see it?

Battara - all the best wishes with the owen, and please let us know how it turns out. Maybe, like I wrote, that what you use for heating could make a difference on the colours, but I expect that you will only have one possibility - right?

Jens Nordlunde · 17th November 2006, 02:45 PM

I have decided to open an old thread, as I have found some new pieces of information, which maybe can be of interest.

It seems as if the enamel hilted tulwar is not the only one marked with a KA and a number. I have seen another one marked in the same way, but here the number is 76. The hilt is slim, diamond shaped, and with a hand guard. Decorated in a thick gold koft gari floral decoration. The blade is watered on one side with one big fuller, but on the other side it is plain steel with two narrow fullers.

The number ‘3’ is interesting. It took me some time before I realised, that the numbers used in Sanskrit, Gujarati, Kutch and Devanagri, although many of them look alike, some differs a little. In only one of the four numerals the no ‘3’ looks like the one on the blade shown in an earlier post, and in Kutch, and only in Kutch, there is a little stroke under the number. The text on the disc has been discussed in other posts, but it is interesting to note, that towns Nathdwara and Udaipur are only about 400 km away from Bhuj, the capital of Kutch. Udaipur was known for its fine enamel work, and as Nathdwara is only about 60 km away from Udaipur, there is a possibility that the hilt was made in Nathdwara.

But back to the second tulwar I described. The number ‘6’ in Kutchi looks like the number ‘3’ on the blade turned vertically, also with a small stroke under, but the numerals used, when using the three other languages, number ‘6’ looks differently, but no ‘7’ looks alike in all four languages. This means that the enamelled tulwar and the one described must have come from the same armoury in Kutch. If they were made there is an open question, but to my opinion they must have come from the same place.

There is one other language where the no ‘3’ and ‘7’ looks like the one used in Kutch, and that is in Nepalese, but I think we can rule Nepal out

.

Tim Simmons · 17th November 2006, 05:08 PM

How funny. It is obvious now it is written on the hilt

17th November 2006, 02:45 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I have decided to open an old thread, as I have found some new pieces of information, which maybe can be of interest. It seems as if the enamel hilted tulwar is not the only one marked with a KA and a number. I have seen another one marked in the same way, but here the number is 76. The hilt is slim, diamond shaped, and with a hand guard. Decorated in a thick gold koft gari floral decoration. The blade is watered on one side with one big fuller, but on the other side it is plain steel with two narrow fullers. The number ‘3’ is interesting. It took me some time before I realised, that the numbers used in Sanskrit, Gujarati, Kutch and Devanagri, although many of them look alike, some differs a little. In only one of the four numerals the no ‘3’ looks like the one on the blade shown in an earlier post, and in Kutch, and only in Kutch, there is a little stroke under the number. The text on the disc has been discussed in other posts, but it is interesting to note, that towns Nathdwara and Udaipur are only about 400 km away from Bhuj, the capital of Kutch. Udaipur was known for its fine enamel work, and as Nathdwara is only about 60 km away from Udaipur, there is a possibility that the hilt was made in Nathdwara. But back to the second tulwar I described. The number ‘6’ in Kutchi looks like the number ‘3’ on the blade turned vertically, also with a small stroke under, but the numerals used, when using the three other languages, number ‘6’ looks differently, but no ‘7’ looks alike in all four languages. This means that the enamelled tulwar and the one described must have come from the same armoury in Kutch. If they were made there is an open question, but to my opinion they must have come from the same place. There is one other language where the no ‘3’ and ‘7’ looks like the one used in Kutch, and that is in Nepalese, but I think we can rule Nepal out. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 17th November 2006 at 06:20 PM.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

2nd April 2006, 09:11 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Thanks very much guys for the kind words, and thanks for posting as I kind of wanted to keep this thread going!! I had never really paid much attention to the enamel decoration as it was so far out of my league I never really saw purpose in trying to study it. Thats why I am glad that Jens sparked this interesting subject, and now I can at least understand cloissone vs. champleve, up to now just fancy terms to me! Brian & Tim, I have heard of the Baden-Powell book long ago, but pretty much gave up trying to find it. It did seem to have distinct promise as he was as noted contemporary with Hendley et al. I have long said that while these early writers' works have obviously been considerably superceded by many recent discoveries and more recent research, they serve as valuable benchmarks as examples of opinions and observations of the times. One can never underestimate original research that often may inadvertantly hold clues to completely forgotten lines of investigation. BTW, I was once a Boy Scout too!!! On my honor I did my best!!! I was incredibly pleased when years later I found that Baden-Powell the India researcher and Baden-Powell the Scouts founder were one in the same. Battara, I'm glad you're planning to approach the enamelling process, it really does sound exciting and challenging! I found lots of key information far too technical for me to comprehend in the Encyclopedia Brittanica. Perhaps checking into that resource might offer some insight that could be helpful in your project....I hope you'll keep us up to date on progress!! I always envy you guys with these crafting skills!!! All the best, Jim

3rd April 2006, 04:26 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, thank you for your answer. The Sanskrit letter on the back of the blade stands for Kha, Ka or K. The reason why I think it could come from an armoury is, that I have seen another blade with the same mark but with number 67 on it, and I doubt that a weapon smith would have numbered the blades he made. The enamel work as such is fascinating, when you imagine the crude tools they had, the furnaces they used, and the fantastic work they made. The fact that many could not make the past they used, and had to buy it from Luchnow, without getting the same results must be due to the heating – or maybe to what they used for heating, so maybe the smoke could make a difference how the colours showed in the end. The underside of the disc is a puzzle, and although I am no specialist I don’t think it has been made by the same one who made the rest, not only due to the colours, but I think the whole design looks different. But why was this very nice, but different, decoration ‘hidden’ under the disc, a place where no one but the owner would see it? Battara - all the best wishes with the owen, and please let us know how it turns out. Maybe, like I wrote, that what you use for heating could make a difference on the colours, but I expect that you will only have one possibility - right?

17th November 2006, 05:08 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	How funny. It is obvious now it is written on the hilt