Marwar(???) hilt and a Gill's blade

ariel · 2nd June 2018, 08:10 PM

Hi everybody!
Need your expertise and advice.

In his book on Indian weapons , Pant shows a hilt he specifically attributes to Marwar based on the " kissing swans) on the D-guard.

I have 2 similar ones. Regretfully, Pant, IMHO, is not a very reliable source of information.

So, my question #1:
Does anybody here has an independent confirmation of the Marwari origin of this pattern?

Then, question #2:

The upper sword has a standard Indian blade. But the lower one has a British 1796 pattern blade. I know that Brits transfered ( sold?) their blades to the Indian contingents.
This blade is labelled on the spine with the name of I. Gill. I know of Thomas, John and James Gills, but am unfamiliar with I. Gill. Perhaps, the letter of the initial is damaged. Does the stamp on the blade help?

I will be grateful for any help.

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd June 2018, 10:16 PM

Hi Ariel,
Hmmm.. I would be a bit careful when it comes to Pant, as you are well aware.
I think it may relate into another group, which I try to research, and in this group there are several hilt - all of silver. But I may be wrong - research will show. See cat. p. 296-297.
I dont know where I will end, but it is interesting all the same.

ariel · 3rd June 2018, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Ariel,
Hmmm.. I would be a bit careful when it comes to Pant, as you are well aware.

He-he-he....

That's why I am asking:-)

Yes, I know your Rajput one. Still, can we further pinpoint this pattern to Marwar?

Bryce · 3rd June 2018, 01:29 AM

G'day Ariel,

Can't help you with the hilt, but I can confirm the blade is from a British 1796 pattern light cavalry sabre. I Gill stands for John Gill who took over the sword business when his more famous father Thomas died in 1801. Remember in the Latin alphabet there was no J. John Gill was in business from 1802-1817. Richard Dellar has a chapter on the Gill family in his book "The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912".

The crown over 4 stamp is a government acceptance stamp signifying the sword was accepted into British service by the Board of Ordnance. From there it obviously found it's way into Indian hands.

Cheers,
Bryce

ariel · 3rd June 2018, 08:56 AM

Thanks!
Of course!
Indiana Jones almost died in the “Last Crusade” misspelling Iehova as Jehova:-)

Jens Nordlunde · 4th June 2018, 10:37 PM

Since you ask Ariel, no I would not pin point it to Marwai at the moment.
There are postulates, but no arguments why it should be from there.

Mercenary · 5th June 2018, 01:29 AM

"Kissing birds" is the original Rajasthan motif very popular in Jodhpur (!) and Jaipur.

ariel · 5th June 2018, 04:29 AM

I agree: it is most likely Rajasthani. Marwar is a part of Rajasthan and historically it included Jodhpur. No arguments here. Jaipur is not a part of Marwar.

But, as Jens is saying, why is this handle specifically Marwari and not from some other Rajasthani principality?

5th June 2018, 01:29 AM	#7
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	"Kissing birds" is the original Rajasthan motif very popular in Jodhpur (!) and Jaipur. Last edited by Mercenary; 5th June 2018 at 10:46 AM.

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2nd June 2018, 08:10 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marwar(???) hilt and a Gill's blade Hi everybody! Need your expertise and advice. In his book on Indian weapons , Pant shows a hilt he specifically attributes to Marwar based on the " kissing swans) on the D-guard. I have 2 similar ones. Regretfully, Pant, IMHO, is not a very reliable source of information. So, my question #1: Does anybody here has an independent confirmation of the Marwari origin of this pattern? Then, question #2: The upper sword has a standard Indian blade. But the lower one has a British 1796 pattern blade. I know that Brits transfered ( sold?) their blades to the Indian contingents. This blade is labelled on the spine with the name of I. Gill. I know of Thomas, John and James Gills, but am unfamiliar with I. Gill. Perhaps, the letter of the initial is damaged. Does the stamp on the blade help? I will be grateful for any help. Attached Images

2nd June 2018, 10:16 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Ariel, Hmmm.. I would be a bit careful when it comes to Pant, as you are well aware. I think it may relate into another group, which I try to research, and in this group there are several hilt - all of silver. But I may be wrong - research will show. See cat. p. 296-297. I dont know where I will end, but it is interesting all the same.

3rd June 2018, 01:29 AM	#4
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 186	G'day Ariel, Can't help you with the hilt, but I can confirm the blade is from a British 1796 pattern light cavalry sabre. I Gill stands for John Gill who took over the sword business when his more famous father Thomas died in 1801. Remember in the Latin alphabet there was no J. John Gill was in business from 1802-1817. Richard Dellar has a chapter on the Gill family in his book "The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912". The crown over 4 stamp is a government acceptance stamp signifying the sword was accepted into British service by the Board of Ordnance. From there it obviously found it's way into Indian hands. Cheers, Bryce

3rd June 2018, 08:56 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks! Of course! Indiana Jones almost died in the “Last Crusade” misspelling Iehova as Jehova:-)

4th June 2018, 10:37 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Since you ask Ariel, no I would not pin point it to Marwai at the moment. There are postulates, but no arguments why it should be from there.

5th June 2018, 04:29 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I agree: it is most likely Rajasthani. Marwar is a part of Rajasthan and historically it included Jodhpur. No arguments here. Jaipur is not a part of Marwar. But, as Jens is saying, why is this handle specifically Marwari and not from some other Rajasthani principality?