Unusual nimcha blade: need help

ariel · 8th May 2018, 12:16 PM

Whereas Hermann Historica sold it as Moroccan...

Who are we to believe?

https://www.hermann-historica.de/en/...nimcha/l/31000

Kubur · 8th May 2018, 06:50 PM

None of them because it's Algerian.
And Teodor is right it's walrus...

ariel · 9th May 2018, 01:21 AM

Yes, now I am certain that Teodor is right: it is walrus ivory as attested by Bonhams and Hermann Historica appraisers who had an opportunity to actually hold it. Both Teodor and myself, not being able to do so, were cautious and admitted the possibility of error. But, yes: Teodor was able to see something that I did not and I freely admit that he was correct.

As to the origin of the hilt: professional appraisers with ample opportunities to consult real specialists attributed it to Morocco or Oman. You needed just a brief look at a picture to dismiss their opinions and unhesitantly pronounce the hilt Algerian.

Isn’t it a bit presumptious on your part?

TVV · 9th May 2018, 07:12 AM

When it comes to the hilt, if you trace out the contours of the grip and the guard, the closest match in terms of pure shape is the group of nimchas that usually have a hilt with tortoise shell and metal. From what I have read, the Algerian attribution is based on 4 swords in the Real Armeria that were taken as trophies in 1732 during the siege of Oran. Similar swords may have been used along the entire Barbary Coast, but we know for sure that they were definitely in use in what is nowadays Algeria in the early 18th century. Hence why earlier in this thread I posted an opinion that the walrus hilt is most likely of Algerian origin.

The further back we go in time, the less we know with absolute certainty. The same applies to auction house appraisers, museum curators and authors. We all examine the available information, compare examples, and then form an opinion. The conclusions we reach are not always right, often because we simply do not know enough. But I believe we all like the mystery aspect or else we would be collecting regular military patterns and not ethnographic arms that are all more or less unique creations.

I honestly am still not entirely sure what to make of this sword. It is certainly very interesting - the hilt is of an old form, but from an unusual material (for the type, otherwise walrus ivory was quite popular in the Ottoman Empire), the blade attached to the hilt by what appears like a sandwich construction at the base, so almost certainly not original to the hilt, and then with an inscription that may or may not have anything to do with Tipu Sultan of Mysore. On top of that, it appears to have traded hands at auction quite a few times lately. I see why Kubur chose to post it here - it has a straight multi-fullered blade on a hilt that is most likely from the Maghreb, but I do not think the two swords have all that much in common.

Sooner or later, there will be a sword posted online with a blade similar to yours in terms of the shape and fullering, and when that happens, hopefully whoever notices it will remember this thread and will post it here.

ariel · 9th May 2018, 10:15 AM

You are right : we diverged ( but isn’t it a nice aspect of a free discussion?).
To summarize the certainties: the hilt on mine is Moroccan and a structurally similar blade on the “auction” one is Indian as suggested by wootz.
The rest is still a mystery.
Well, in another 10 or 20 years we may finally learn something new to figure it all out.
Till then let’s keep an open mind, cheerful disposition and positive attitude:-)

8th May 2018, 12:16 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Whereas Hermann Historica sold it as Moroccan... Who are we to believe? https://www.hermann-historica.de/en/...nimcha/l/31000 Attached Images

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

8th May 2018, 06:50 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	None of them because it's Algerian. And Teodor is right it's walrus...

9th May 2018, 01:21 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, now I am certain that Teodor is right: it is walrus ivory as attested by Bonhams and Hermann Historica appraisers who had an opportunity to actually hold it. Both Teodor and myself, not being able to do so, were cautious and admitted the possibility of error. But, yes: Teodor was able to see something that I did not and I freely admit that he was correct. As to the origin of the hilt: professional appraisers with ample opportunities to consult real specialists attributed it to Morocco or Oman. You needed just a brief look at a picture to dismiss their opinions and unhesitantly pronounce the hilt Algerian. Isn’t it a bit presumptious on your part?

9th May 2018, 07:12 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	When it comes to the hilt, if you trace out the contours of the grip and the guard, the closest match in terms of pure shape is the group of nimchas that usually have a hilt with tortoise shell and metal. From what I have read, the Algerian attribution is based on 4 swords in the Real Armeria that were taken as trophies in 1732 during the siege of Oran. Similar swords may have been used along the entire Barbary Coast, but we know for sure that they were definitely in use in what is nowadays Algeria in the early 18th century. Hence why earlier in this thread I posted an opinion that the walrus hilt is most likely of Algerian origin. The further back we go in time, the less we know with absolute certainty. The same applies to auction house appraisers, museum curators and authors. We all examine the available information, compare examples, and then form an opinion. The conclusions we reach are not always right, often because we simply do not know enough. But I believe we all like the mystery aspect or else we would be collecting regular military patterns and not ethnographic arms that are all more or less unique creations. I honestly am still not entirely sure what to make of this sword. It is certainly very interesting - the hilt is of an old form, but from an unusual material (for the type, otherwise walrus ivory was quite popular in the Ottoman Empire), the blade attached to the hilt by what appears like a sandwich construction at the base, so almost certainly not original to the hilt, and then with an inscription that may or may not have anything to do with Tipu Sultan of Mysore. On top of that, it appears to have traded hands at auction quite a few times lately. I see why Kubur chose to post it here - it has a straight multi-fullered blade on a hilt that is most likely from the Maghreb, but I do not think the two swords have all that much in common. Sooner or later, there will be a sword posted online with a blade similar to yours in terms of the shape and fullering, and when that happens, hopefully whoever notices it will remember this thread and will post it here.

9th May 2018, 10:15 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You are right : we diverged ( but isn’t it a nice aspect of a free discussion?). To summarize the certainties: the hilt on mine is Moroccan and a structurally similar blade on the “auction” one is Indian as suggested by wootz. The rest is still a mystery. Well, in another 10 or 20 years we may finally learn something new to figure it all out. Till then let’s keep an open mind, cheerful disposition and positive attitude:-)