Unusual nimcha blade: need help

ariel · 6th May 2018, 01:23 PM

Theodor,
My reference to South Arabia was based on Robert Hales’ book.
He shows a whole bunch of Omani nimchas with nearly identical IVORY handles, likely made in Zanzibar, Pemba etc. ( pp. 237-239).

I think that a more realistic scenario for the French sword would be just an Indian trade blade mounted in Oman on a locally-made handle. At least we know that Omanis traded with India extensively and even owned a part of Baluchistan. A picture of the cartouche shows what seems to look like Indian crystalline Wootz.

The circuitous route “ Caucasus- Mysore-Morocco” is far too complex for the Occam’s rule. Moreover, the Caucasus point is plainly wrong, and the Mysore one is based on just a misspelled name Tipy( sic!).

TVV · 6th May 2018, 06:06 PM

Ariel,

To me the swords from Hales book, which we have seen used in the Comoros, are different in terms of shape, decoration and guard, and I suspect at least a century later. A better comparison from Hales would be #584. For what it is worth, the material on the hilt in question looks like walrus as opposed to elephant ivory on the Eastern African ones.

Teodor

Kubur · 6th May 2018, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Ariel,

To me the swords from Hales book, which we have seen used in the Comoros, are different in terms of shape, decoration and guard, and I suspect at least a century later. A better comparison from Hales would be #584. For what it is worth, the material on the hilt in question looks like walrus as opposed to elephant ivory on the Eastern African ones.

Teodor

Of course Teodor you're right, plus we have around 1000 posts about this topic...

ariel · 7th May 2018, 04:53 AM

Teodor,

Both of us are handicapped by the quality of picture, but no matter how carefully I looked, I could not see the heterogeneous structure of the walrus ivory. Looks old, dried and randomly cracked elephant ivory to me. Regretfully, none of us here can hold it in our hands and make an informed opinion.

You are completely correct on one point: the handguard. All Omani ones ( that I know) were iron, whereas Moroccan ones were made of brass or iron, and were less massive. Just like the French one. On the other hand, Moroccan ones had their handled made out of wood, horn or ( the luxurious ones) turtle shell. I cannot recall any utililizing ivory. Do you know of any?

I looked at your example from Hales' book. True enough. But the older and higher-class Moroccan have the same configuration as the Omani examples, including the protruding " comb" on the back surface of the pommel, whereas the low-end handles from both localities were all wooden and without it.

I think that without well-documented and fully reliable provenance we might have major difficulties attributing the French one. And with rather active trade connections around the Islamic areal, we just cannot be sure.
One thing we know: the attribution and the provenance by the dealer are totally unreliable; the Caucasian part of it is plainly wrong, and the Mysore part of it is based on a misspelled name of Tipoo and nothing else.

In short, a typical conundrum familiar to all collectors of Oriental weapons....

As an aside: Elgood in his recent book demonstrates quite a lot of blades from the Jodhpur Armory marked with illustrious Rajput names. All is well until he dryly mentions that the names were added by the order of the first director of the Jodhpur museum:-))

TVV · 8th May 2018, 07:18 AM

Ivory on Maghrebi nimcha hilts is indeed rare. In my pictures archive I found one that is currently exhibited in a museum in Israel. There is another one which is currently for sale, so I cannot post it, but a basic google search would probably produce it. Both are elephant ivory and not walrus ivory like the French sword (it looks like walrus to me, and I could be wrong).

Anyway, we have diverged quite a bit from your sword, and yours has a hilt that is Moroccan without a doubt.

ariel · 8th May 2018, 12:10 PM

Well, the French one was once sold at Bonhams.
They attributed it ( tentatively) to Oman

ariel · 8th May 2018, 12:16 PM

Whereas Hermann Historica sold it as Moroccan...

Who are we to believe?

https://www.hermann-historica.de/en/...nimcha/l/31000

6th May 2018, 01:23 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Theodor, My reference to South Arabia was based on Robert Hales’ book. He shows a whole bunch of Omani nimchas with nearly identical IVORY handles, likely made in Zanzibar, Pemba etc. ( pp. 237-239). I think that a more realistic scenario for the French sword would be just an Indian trade blade mounted in Oman on a locally-made handle. At least we know that Omanis traded with India extensively and even owned a part of Baluchistan. A picture of the cartouche shows what seems to look like Indian crystalline Wootz. The circuitous route “ Caucasus- Mysore-Morocco” is far too complex for the Occam’s rule. Moreover, the Caucasus point is plainly wrong, and the Mysore one is based on just a misspelled name Tipy( sic!). Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 6th May 2018 at 04:30 PM.

8th May 2018, 12:10 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, the French one was once sold at Bonhams. They attributed it ( tentatively) to Oman Attached Images

8th May 2018, 12:16 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Whereas Hermann Historica sold it as Moroccan... Who are we to believe? https://www.hermann-historica.de/en/...nimcha/l/31000 Attached Images

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6th May 2018, 06:06 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Ariel, To me the swords from Hales book, which we have seen used in the Comoros, are different in terms of shape, decoration and guard, and I suspect at least a century later. A better comparison from Hales would be #584. For what it is worth, the material on the hilt in question looks like walrus as opposed to elephant ivory on the Eastern African ones. Teodor

7th May 2018, 04:53 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Teodor, Both of us are handicapped by the quality of picture, but no matter how carefully I looked, I could not see the heterogeneous structure of the walrus ivory. Looks old, dried and randomly cracked elephant ivory to me. Regretfully, none of us here can hold it in our hands and make an informed opinion. You are completely correct on one point: the handguard. All Omani ones ( that I know) were iron, whereas Moroccan ones were made of brass or iron, and were less massive. Just like the French one. On the other hand, Moroccan ones had their handled made out of wood, horn or ( the luxurious ones) turtle shell. I cannot recall any utililizing ivory. Do you know of any? I looked at your example from Hales' book. True enough. But the older and higher-class Moroccan have the same configuration as the Omani examples, including the protruding " comb" on the back surface of the pommel, whereas the low-end handles from both localities were all wooden and without it. I think that without well-documented and fully reliable provenance we might have major difficulties attributing the French one. And with rather active trade connections around the Islamic areal, we just cannot be sure. One thing we know: the attribution and the provenance by the dealer are totally unreliable; the Caucasian part of it is plainly wrong, and the Mysore part of it is based on a misspelled name of Tipoo and nothing else. In short, a typical conundrum familiar to all collectors of Oriental weapons.... As an aside: Elgood in his recent book demonstrates quite a lot of blades from the Jodhpur Armory marked with illustrious Rajput names. All is well until he dryly mentions that the names were added by the order of the first director of the Jodhpur museum:-))

8th May 2018, 07:18 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Ivory on Maghrebi nimcha hilts is indeed rare. In my pictures archive I found one that is currently exhibited in a museum in Israel. There is another one which is currently for sale, so I cannot post it, but a basic google search would probably produce it. Both are elephant ivory and not walrus ivory like the French sword (it looks like walrus to me, and I could be wrong). Anyway, we have diverged quite a bit from your sword, and yours has a hilt that is Moroccan without a doubt. Attached Images