Figurative Hilt ID

David · 2nd May 2018, 09:27 PM

I acquired this hilt on an old Javanese keris really early in my keris collecting "career". It shows some age, but i have always assumed it was at least post WWII and possibly from sometime around the 1960-70. Iy has a nice color and patina. While no great work of figurative art i have always thought it had a certain charm (a bit like Art Naïve). I have wondered if it might be of Madurese origin, but i have never been sure. It seems like it might be Ganesha, but maybe not. You know how it is with later figurative hilts. It's intentions are not clear IMO. I did once see another hilt of the same exact design which very possibly may have come from the same carver for sale online some time ago, but i never downloaded the images and can't remember the site.
So what i'd like to know where folks think this originated? Do you think it is bone or antler? I kind of lean towards bone (note that the head has a plugged piece inserted). What type/origin of keris would this hilt be appropriate for? All comments appreciated. Thanks!

drdavid · 2nd May 2018, 10:36 PM

Hi David, not much to contribute but I think your call that this is Lord Ganesha is probably correct, both hands are holding something, ? the left hand a conch, no idea what is in the other hand
cheers
Drd

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2018, 12:08 AM

No, this is not Ganesha, it is most probably intended as a representation of Jentayu (Jatayu).

David · 3rd May 2018, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

No, this is not Ganesha, it is most probably intended as a representation of Jentayu (Jatayu).

I always thought the long face looked more beak than trunk.
Any thoughts on origins Alan, or what, if any, dress this hilt would best serve?

Rick · 3rd May 2018, 04:05 AM

I have to wonder if it would actually be used within the culture it originates from.
Would it not be considered as a bit over the top?

David · 3rd May 2018, 04:38 AM

I don't know Rick. I don't think anyone has actually determines what culture it originates from so i don't know how to answer your question. If indeed it represents a Hindu concept than could it have originated in one of the Balinese enclaves in Madura? If it is a Hindu representation it doesn't seem over the top to me at all.

No one has commented on the material yet. What do you think, bone or antler?

Rick · 3rd May 2018, 05:53 AM

I'll guess bone David. At the bottom of the handle is a ring which I think covers the marrow area.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2018, 06:15 AM

Looks like bone to me.

My guess is Madura, Sumenep work, and 1980's --- but if you say you got it previous to this David, well, just take it back to where you think reasonable.

It would perhaps sit best on something East Jawa/North Coast/Madura.

Yes, certainly Jentayu is Hindu, but the East Jawa/Madura carvers draw on all societies, cultures, periods for inspiration.

Gustav · 3rd May 2018, 10:24 AM

For me, it's interesting to see the engraved "cracks", which imitate older ivory.
A good lesson.

David · 3rd May 2018, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Looks like bone to me.

My guess is Madura, Sumenep work, and 1980's --- but if you say you got it previous to this David, well, just take it back to where you think reasonable.

It would perhaps sit best on something East Jawa/North Coast/Madura.

Yes, certainly Jentayu is Hindu, but the East Jawa/Madura carvers draw on all societies, cultures, periods for inspiration.

Thanks Alan. No, i didn't acquire this until sometime around 2000. I had jus assumed it was from the 60s or 70s based upon the color and patina, but both those things can be faked to a certain extent, so your 80s attribution might well be correct.

Rick · 3rd May 2018, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

For me, it's interesting to see the engraved "cracks", which imitate older ivory.
A good lesson.

Yes it would from about ten feet away, or to the novice collector.

As Gilbert and Sullivan wrote in Trial By Jury:

"She may very well pass for forty-three
In the dusk, with a light behind her."

Gustav · 3rd May 2018, 03:46 PM

Exactly - imagine you are in a dark shop room, and it's covered with "patina"...
And you don't see the Pesi hole, because it's fitted with a Keris.

Rick · 3rd May 2018, 05:30 PM

It has a certain charm though.

I wish I could carve that well.

Sajen · 3rd May 2018, 06:38 PM

Hello David,

nice hilt also when not antique. Another vote for bone and Jentayu. And I also think that it is from Madura.

Regards,
Detlef

David · 3rd May 2018, 07:23 PM

Thanks gents. For now it sits as a separate piece of keris art. I took it off the keris it originally came on some time ago since it didn't seem a good match. But one day it may find a suitable blade to reside upon.

2nd May 2018, 09:27 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Figurative Hilt ID I acquired this hilt on an old Javanese keris really early in my keris collecting "career". It shows some age, but i have always assumed it was at least post WWII and possibly from sometime around the 1960-70. Iy has a nice color and patina. While no great work of figurative art i have always thought it had a certain charm (a bit like Art Naïve). I have wondered if it might be of Madurese origin, but i have never been sure. It seems like it might be Ganesha, but maybe not. You know how it is with later figurative hilts. It's intentions are not clear IMO. I did once see another hilt of the same exact design which very possibly may have come from the same carver for sale online some time ago, but i never downloaded the images and can't remember the site. So what i'd like to know where folks think this originated? Do you think it is bone or antler? I kind of lean towards bone (note that the head has a plugged piece inserted). What type/origin of keris would this hilt be appropriate for? All comments appreciated. Thanks! Attached Images

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2nd May 2018, 10:36 PM	#2
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Hi David, not much to contribute but I think your call that this is Lord Ganesha is probably correct, both hands are holding something, ? the left hand a conch, no idea what is in the other hand cheers Drd

3rd May 2018, 12:08 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	No, this is not Ganesha, it is most probably intended as a representation of Jentayu (Jatayu).

3rd May 2018, 04:05 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	I have to wonder if it would actually be used within the culture it originates from. Would it not be considered as a bit over the top?

3rd May 2018, 04:38 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	I don't know Rick. I don't think anyone has actually determines what culture it originates from so i don't know how to answer your question. If indeed it represents a Hindu concept than could it have originated in one of the Balinese enclaves in Madura? If it is a Hindu representation it doesn't seem over the top to me at all. No one has commented on the material yet. What do you think, bone or antler?

3rd May 2018, 05:53 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	I'll guess bone David. At the bottom of the handle is a ring which I think covers the marrow area.

3rd May 2018, 06:15 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Looks like bone to me. My guess is Madura, Sumenep work, and 1980's --- but if you say you got it previous to this David, well, just take it back to where you think reasonable. It would perhaps sit best on something East Jawa/North Coast/Madura. Yes, certainly Jentayu is Hindu, but the East Jawa/Madura carvers draw on all societies, cultures, periods for inspiration.

3rd May 2018, 10:24 AM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	For me, it's interesting to see the engraved "cracks", which imitate older ivory. A good lesson.

3rd May 2018, 03:46 PM	#12
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Exactly - imagine you are in a dark shop room, and it's covered with "patina"... And you don't see the Pesi hole, because it's fitted with a Keris.

3rd May 2018, 05:30 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	It has a certain charm though. I wish I could carve that well.

3rd May 2018, 06:38 PM	#14
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,409	Hello David, nice hilt also when not antique. Another vote for bone and Jentayu. And I also think that it is from Madura. Regards, Detlef

3rd May 2018, 07:23 PM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Thanks gents. For now it sits as a separate piece of keris art. I took it off the keris it originally came on some time ago since it didn't seem a good match. But one day it may find a suitable blade to reside upon.