Flintlock Musket Advice Required - Page 2

JamesKelly · 16th February 2018, 07:46 PM

Before you remove that Nasty Orange paint you might investigate it a bit.

I used to work as the metallurgist for a specialty nickel alloy distributor, retired the Ides of March 2007. One of the neat gadgets we had was an X-ray fluoroscope analyzer. Left no mark on the metal. For some years I used to bring in various brass mounted or framed firearms for analysis.

Used one called "Innov-X Systems Model #XT-245S Spectrometer"
This device is also used to analyze pigments in the paint on supposedly old oil paintings. Lets one know if this classic work used pigments - cadmium, for example - that were not available couple hundred years ago.

If you can locate either a friend in metallurgy, or at an art museum, you might get your paint analyzed. Give you some idea of age, though it sure does look old.

A Word of Warning - some lab guys have absolutely no respect for antiquity. Coupled with a bad sense of humor, well. Do make sure your personal body is present during any phase of lab testing. So they don't cut the thing up for a better job. Don't laugh.
Gun makers have been painting their stocks various colors for the last five centuries or so. Matchlock showed a lovely (to my eye) 500-year old Green snapping matchlock.
Here in the USA a successful gun-smith Henry Leman in Lancaster, Pennsylvania painted a number of his rifles red. Supposedly the Indians liked them, and he did supply rifles to our Gov't to fulfill treaty obligations with the Western Indians. Also it would likely be cheaper than his usual painted strips on plain maple. Am aware of one such red Leman rifle bought by a Caucasian in Lancaster County, them moved to our Midwest.

Personally I would leave that orange paint right where it is.

colin henshaw · 14th March 2018, 10:39 AM

This example was sold in England recently, described as a Hudsons Bay Company musket. As can be seen, it has the same sort of red/orange thick paint finish.

corrado26 · 14th March 2018, 12:10 PM

I checked the book "Trade Guns of the Hudson Bay Company 1670 to 1970" by S. James Gooding:

Other than shape, Wood and stock finish are the only other feature to be considered. In 1717 the secretary gave an order to Mr. Hawkins "the Proof Master" for, amongst other things, "70 Gunstocks Sound and of a Dark Colour at 3s pr stock". In 1769 the Gorvernor and Committee wrote "Thos. Hopkins and Council at Albany Fort "We have ordered as many of the guns to be white stocked as we could procure". The 1717 stock"of a dark colour" would have been of walnut while the White stocks would have been beech, both Woods which were commonly used by Ordnance Department at the time of Military arms.
At a Meeting of the Gorvernor and Committee of the HBC held on December 20, 1780 it was ordered " ....that in future the guns have Brown Stocks (no White) the Barrel likewise Brown with an additional Weight of 6 oz to them for strength.

No word of orange or reddish stocks at all!
corrado26

Oliver Pinchot · 14th March 2018, 06:48 PM

We've had several of these walk in over the years; not my area per se
but they are usually associated with Colonial Africa.

I knew Jim Gooding for many years, he was a fine scholar and professor who
was precise in his research and clear in his writing; no ambiguity with him. If he doesn't mention orange-painted stocks vis a vis Hudson Bay guns in his book, it's pretty certain they should not be attributed to that area.

Norman McCormick · 14th March 2018, 09:04 PM

Hi,
Many thanks to all for the continued interest, info and advice.
Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 15th March 2018, 02:08 PM

Gentlemen, let me add a further 'touch up' to my humble participation in the paint issue, once my previous post #8 was somehow inconclusive...

Here is an Africanized Lazarina. Barrel mouth reinforced with skin, stock comb decorated with leather strips and the inevitable brass nails and washers. The octogonal barrel with Birmingham proof marks and the number 15 (bore?), with the traditional inscription LAZARO LAZARINO LEGITIMO DE BRAGA. The lock and other parts are of national (Portuguese) production.
For those unfamiliar with the portuguese, i will give it a try at translating the part referring to the paint subject:

One of the particularities of interest in this example is that it preserves the original woods (often replaced in Africa with more noble woods) which used to leave Portugal painted red. Remnants of the original colour may be seen under the washers and skin reinforcements that turned open with time

( Courtesy Eduardo Nobre in AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES)

.

Norman McCormick · 15th March 2018, 10:57 PM

Hi Fernando,
Many thanks for the further info.
Kind Regards,
Norman.

14th March 2018, 10:39 AM	#32
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	This example was sold in England recently, described as a Hudsons Bay Company musket. As can be seen, it has the same sort of red/orange thick paint finish. Attached Images

15th March 2018, 02:08 PM	#36
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Gentlemen, let me add a further 'touch up' to my humble participation in the paint issue, once my previous post #8 was somehow inconclusive... Here is an Africanized Lazarina. Barrel mouth reinforced with skin, stock comb decorated with leather strips and the inevitable brass nails and washers. The octogonal barrel with Birmingham proof marks and the number 15 (bore?), with the traditional inscription LAZARO LAZARINO LEGITIMO DE BRAGA. The lock and other parts are of national (Portuguese) production. For those unfamiliar with the portuguese, i will give it a try at translating the part referring to the paint subject: One of the particularities of interest in this example is that it preserves the original woods (often replaced in Africa with more noble woods) which used to leave Portugal painted red. Remnants of the original colour may be seen under the washers and skin reinforcements that turned open with time ( Courtesy Eduardo Nobre in AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES) . Attached Images

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16th February 2018, 07:46 PM	#31
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	Before you remove that Nasty Orange paint you might investigate it a bit. I used to work as the metallurgist for a specialty nickel alloy distributor, retired the Ides of March 2007. One of the neat gadgets we had was an X-ray fluoroscope analyzer. Left no mark on the metal. For some years I used to bring in various brass mounted or framed firearms for analysis. Used one called "Innov-X Systems Model #XT-245S Spectrometer" This device is also used to analyze pigments in the paint on supposedly old oil paintings. Lets one know if this classic work used pigments - cadmium, for example - that were not available couple hundred years ago. If you can locate either a friend in metallurgy, or at an art museum, you might get your paint analyzed. Give you some idea of age, though it sure does look old. A Word of Warning - some lab guys have absolutely no respect for antiquity. Coupled with a bad sense of humor, well. Do make sure your personal body is present during any phase of lab testing. So they don't cut the thing up for a better job. Don't laugh. Gun makers have been painting their stocks various colors for the last five centuries or so. Matchlock showed a lovely (to my eye) 500-year old Green snapping matchlock. Here in the USA a successful gun-smith Henry Leman in Lancaster, Pennsylvania painted a number of his rifles red. Supposedly the Indians liked them, and he did supply rifles to our Gov't to fulfill treaty obligations with the Western Indians. Also it would likely be cheaper than his usual painted strips on plain maple. Am aware of one such red Leman rifle bought by a Caucasian in Lancaster County, them moved to our Midwest. Personally I would leave that orange paint right where it is.

14th March 2018, 12:10 PM	#33
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	I checked the book "Trade Guns of the Hudson Bay Company 1670 to 1970" by S. James Gooding: Other than shape, Wood and stock finish are the only other feature to be considered. In 1717 the secretary gave an order to Mr. Hawkins "the Proof Master" for, amongst other things, "70 Gunstocks Sound and of a Dark Colour at 3s pr stock". In 1769 the Gorvernor and Committee wrote "Thos. Hopkins and Council at Albany Fort "We have ordered as many of the guns to be white stocked as we could procure". The 1717 stock"of a dark colour" would have been of walnut while the White stocks would have been beech, both Woods which were commonly used by Ordnance Department at the time of Military arms. At a Meeting of the Gorvernor and Committee of the HBC held on December 20, 1780 it was ordered " ....that in future the guns have Brown Stocks (no White) the Barrel likewise Brown with an additional Weight of 6 oz to them for strength. No word of orange or reddish stocks at all! corrado26

14th March 2018, 06:48 PM	#34
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	We've had several of these walk in over the years; not my area per se but they are usually associated with Colonial Africa. I knew Jim Gooding for many years, he was a fine scholar and professor who was precise in his research and clear in his writing; no ambiguity with him. If he doesn't mention orange-painted stocks vis a vis Hudson Bay guns in his book, it's pretty certain they should not be attributed to that area.

14th March 2018, 09:04 PM	#35
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, Many thanks to all for the continued interest, info and advice. Regards, Norman.

15th March 2018, 10:57 PM	#37
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Fernando, Many thanks for the further info. Kind Regards, Norman.