Warangka for identification

Arjuna · 28th February 2018, 12:29 PM

Hi!
Like to ask you about this as I think mixed Keris with a
Bali blade and a Java janggelan Hilt.

Would be interested where from the silver mounted Warangka could be,
style is unknown to me (Sumatra?).

Thank you!

David · 28th February 2018, 07:09 PM

I was hoping someone else mighty have some answers for you by now, but i'll add my own observations for what they are worth. This does indeed seem to be a very mixed bag of cultural styles and i would only be guessing at how or why they came together. The sheath itself seems to be a bit of an enigma in and of itself. It is not expertly carved and does not seem to quite fit into styles i am familiar with. But sheaths do sometimes get carved by the people less skilled and knowledgeable of styles and often do not quite fit or hit the mold or model their maker was aiming for. The designs on the bands do not look like anything i have seen that i could say are traditional to Sumatra (or Madura or Bali).
The janggelan hilt could be East Jawa or Madura. They are technically the same, but not from elsewhere in Jawa. Same for the mendak i believe.
The blade does indeed seem to be in the style of Bali, but it raises questions for me. The wear on the blade is oddly uneven. It has very sharp features at the lambe gajah, greneng and front edge of the pejetan, but there is much greater deterioration along the blade's edge, especially towards the tip. What would cause such uneven erosion on a blade such as this? There is also that diagonal feature near the tip of the gonjo which i don't believe i've seen on Bali keris before. So i wonder if this is not of more recent, perhaps Madurese, manufacture and artificially aged.

A. G. Maisey · 28th February 2018, 08:24 PM

I'm pretty much with David on this keris. In short:- I do not know with any certainty where it originated.

Comments on component parts:-

Hilt:- East Jawa/ Madura
Mendak:- East Jawa/Madura
Gambar:- not the work of a tukang wrongko --- incorrect grain orientation; stylistically it can be associated with Tegal and with Lombok. Absolutely no idea where it was made.
Silver (?) work on scabbard is outside keris tradition but stylistically perhaps Sumatera or Peninsula
Blade is stylistically Bali.

In respect of the pattern of blade corrosion.

This raises no questions at all with me. The edges of the blade are steel, where this steel is hardened the corrosion pattern will accelerate, what I believe I can see in these edges is a typical pattern.

The body of the blade is iron + nickel, this corrodes much more slowly than heat treated steel, I expect to see a different and much milder corrosion pattern in these areas.

Keris blades are normally only heat treated for a part of the way up the blade, this is a design feature used to prevent breakage, the keris is used to thrust, the cut is secondary, so only the tip of the blade needs to be hardened. In a Javanese blade the furthest up the blade the hardening goes is the tip of the sogokan, or its equivalent position where there is no sogokan; in many areas only the first couple of inches of the blade are hardened.

The blade only I think could originate from Klungkung, Kusamba, pre-puputan.

My guess, I emphasise "guess", is that this is a dealer's montage, very possibly put together in Singapore.

David · 28th February 2018, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In respect of the pattern of blade corrosion.

This raises no questions at all with me. The edges of the blade are steel, where this steel is hardened the corrosion pattern will accelerate, what I believe I can see in these edges is a typical pattern.

The body of the blade is iron + nickel, this corrodes much more slowly than heat treated steel, I expect to see a different and much milder corrosion pattern in these areas.

Keris blades are normally only heat treated for a part of the way up the blade, this is a design feature used to prevent breakage, the keris is used to thrust, the cut is secondary, so only the tip of the blade needs to be hardened. In a Javanese blade the furthest up the blade the hardening goes is the tip of the sogokan, or its equivalent position where there is no sogokan; in many areas only the first couple of inches of the blade are hardened.

The blade only I think could originate from Klungkung, Kusamba, pre-puputan.

My guess, I emphasise "guess", is that this is a dealer's montage, very possibly put together in Singapore.

Thanks for your input on the blade. I could not be as sure as you, but it did raise some red flags for me spurring my comment.
I am still confused by the diagonally incised line near the front of the gonjo. Not a feature i can say i have seen on Bali keris. Do you have some experience with seeing this feature before?

A. G. Maisey · 28th February 2018, 09:44 PM

David, I am very certain about my comments on corrosion patterns, but re the line on the gonjo I cannot comment. For me, what places this as a pre-puputan, probably Klungkung blade is the fact that the keris made by the ancestors of Empu Mangku Pande Made Wija were known for nearly always having pudak setegal, whilst in other Bali blades it is a seldom seen feature. Also in blades of his line the kembang kacang was known for complete (robyong) detail.

David · 28th February 2018, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, I am very certain about my comments on corrosion patterns, but re the line on the gonjo I cannot comment. For me, what places this as a pre-puputan, probably Klungkung blade is the fact that the keris made by the ancestors of Empu Mangku Pande Made Wija were known for nearly always having pudak setegal, whilst in other Bali blades it is a seldom seen feature. Also in blades of his line the kembang kacang was known for complete (robyong) detail.

Thanks Alan. Useful information about the pedal setegal. I have yet to receive a Bali keris with that particular feature so now when i do i'll have a better idea of its particular origins.

drdavid · 1st March 2018, 05:04 AM

David/Alan
pudak/pedal setegal is not a name/feature I am familiar with, could you indicate what it is please.
thanks
DrD

A. G. Maisey · 1st March 2018, 06:06 AM

It is the little spiky things that stick out from the blade edge level with about halfway up the sogokan.

This sketch shows them clearly:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

In the sketch they come to the top of the sogokan.

Arjuna · 1st March 2018, 09:41 AM

Thank you for your comments and the interesting lesson about the hardening of the blades!

Just one more question:
I was attracted by the Pudak sategal blade and could not make sense of the sheat. Would you leaf it as the couriosity it is or give the blade a Bali sarong? (I have a spare Cecekahan and a Godoan sheat ...)

A. G. Maisey · 1st March 2018, 10:32 AM

Personally, I'd put the keris into a compatible wrongko, and give it a Balinese hilt.

But tastes differ.

28th February 2018, 12:29 PM	#1
Arjuna Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Vienna Posts: 17	Warangka for identification Hi! Like to ask you about this as I think mixed Keris with a Bali blade and a Java janggelan Hilt. Would be interested where from the silver mounted Warangka could be, style is unknown to me (Sumatra?). Thank you! Attached Images

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

28th February 2018, 07:09 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,120	I was hoping someone else mighty have some answers for you by now, but i'll add my own observations for what they are worth. This does indeed seem to be a very mixed bag of cultural styles and i would only be guessing at how or why they came together. The sheath itself seems to be a bit of an enigma in and of itself. It is not expertly carved and does not seem to quite fit into styles i am familiar with. But sheaths do sometimes get carved by the people less skilled and knowledgeable of styles and often do not quite fit or hit the mold or model their maker was aiming for. The designs on the bands do not look like anything i have seen that i could say are traditional to Sumatra (or Madura or Bali). The janggelan hilt could be East Jawa or Madura. They are technically the same, but not from elsewhere in Jawa. Same for the mendak i believe. The blade does indeed seem to be in the style of Bali, but it raises questions for me. The wear on the blade is oddly uneven. It has very sharp features at the lambe gajah, greneng and front edge of the pejetan, but there is much greater deterioration along the blade's edge, especially towards the tip. What would cause such uneven erosion on a blade such as this? There is also that diagonal feature near the tip of the gonjo which i don't believe i've seen on Bali keris before. So i wonder if this is not of more recent, perhaps Madurese, manufacture and artificially aged.

28th February 2018, 08:24 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,889	I'm pretty much with David on this keris. In short:- I do not know with any certainty where it originated. Comments on component parts:- Hilt:- East Jawa/ Madura Mendak:- East Jawa/Madura Gambar:- not the work of a tukang wrongko --- incorrect grain orientation; stylistically it can be associated with Tegal and with Lombok. Absolutely no idea where it was made. Silver (?) work on scabbard is outside keris tradition but stylistically perhaps Sumatera or Peninsula Blade is stylistically Bali. In respect of the pattern of blade corrosion. This raises no questions at all with me. The edges of the blade are steel, where this steel is hardened the corrosion pattern will accelerate, what I believe I can see in these edges is a typical pattern. The body of the blade is iron + nickel, this corrodes much more slowly than heat treated steel, I expect to see a different and much milder corrosion pattern in these areas. Keris blades are normally only heat treated for a part of the way up the blade, this is a design feature used to prevent breakage, the keris is used to thrust, the cut is secondary, so only the tip of the blade needs to be hardened. In a Javanese blade the furthest up the blade the hardening goes is the tip of the sogokan, or its equivalent position where there is no sogokan; in many areas only the first couple of inches of the blade are hardened. The blade only I think could originate from Klungkung, Kusamba, pre-puputan. My guess, I emphasise "guess", is that this is a dealer's montage, very possibly put together in Singapore.

28th February 2018, 09:44 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,889	David, I am very certain about my comments on corrosion patterns, but re the line on the gonjo I cannot comment. For me, what places this as a pre-puputan, probably Klungkung blade is the fact that the keris made by the ancestors of Empu Mangku Pande Made Wija were known for nearly always having pudak setegal, whilst in other Bali blades it is a seldom seen feature. Also in blades of his line the kembang kacang was known for complete (robyong) detail.

1st March 2018, 05:04 AM	#7
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	David/Alan pudak/pedal setegal is not a name/feature I am familiar with, could you indicate what it is please. thanks DrD

1st March 2018, 06:06 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,889	It is the little spiky things that stick out from the blade edge level with about halfway up the sogokan. This sketch shows them clearly:- http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html In the sketch they come to the top of the sogokan.

1st March 2018, 09:41 AM	#9
Arjuna Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Vienna Posts: 17	Thank you for your comments and the interesting lesson about the hardening of the blades! Just one more question: I was attracted by the Pudak sategal blade and could not make sense of the sheat. Would you leaf it as the couriosity it is or give the blade a Bali sarong? (I have a spare Cecekahan and a Godoan sheat ...)

1st March 2018, 10:32 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,889	Personally, I'd put the keris into a compatible wrongko, and give it a Balinese hilt. But tastes differ.