Meteoric Blades on Bronze Age Weapons

[David]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

With respect to Tut's blades, I also believe it is much more likely to be an imported present for the Pharao from somewhere where iron working was already known.

From Wikipedia entry on the Iron Age:
The earliest-known iron artifacts are nine small beads dated to 3200 BC, which were found in burials at Gerzeh, Lower Egypt. They have been identified as meteoric iron shaped by careful hammering.[1] Meteoric iron, a characteristic iron–nickel alloy, was used by various ancient peoples thousands of years before the Iron Age. Such iron, being in its native metallic state, required no smelting of ores.
The Iron Age proper supposedly started around 1200 BC. or so, but obviously people were aware of and working with iron in some form for up to 2000 years before they had enough of a command of the material to make it commonplace.
it would seem that iron was known to the Egyptians longer than perhaps anyone else in the world. If the earliest known iron artifacts indeed come from Egypt, why would you assume the King Tut dagger would need to come from some other origin than Egypt itself?

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I do not understand what is meant by "the Iron Age Proper", however the Hittites were the first technologically advanced people to produce iron tools, artifacts and weapons in any considerable number, and the Hittites had developed viable iron tools and weapons by about 1500BC.

The Hittite Empire collapsed in about 1200BC, and immediately after this collapse the rise of iron technology occurred in Cyprus and Greece. With the rise of iron technology in Greece there was a leap in production of iron artifacts. Also from about 1200 BC we have the first evidence from Cyprus of iron with a carbon content --- ie, steel --- that has been quenched.

It appears that although iron with a carbon content has been found from earlier dates, there was no consistency in the carburisation process, it was an accidental carburisation that had resulted from carburisation in the forge, rather than carburisation in a bloomery. However, carbon content of iron by itself is not enough to produce a tool or weapon that is markedly superior to bronze, that iron with the carbon content needs to be heated and quenched. It would seem that this did not occur until after about 1200BC, so maybe that is what is meant by "Iron Age Proper" .

While it is true that the Ancient Egyptians did cold forge meteoritic material to produce talismans, they did not begin to produce iron tools and weapons until about 500-600BC, when iron smelting technology became available.

Egypt at the time of Tutankhamen did not possess the technology to produce a blade like the KT dagger, but the Hittites did, and there were diplomatic and marriage ties between the Egyptian court and the Hittite court.

An Afterthought

For those of us who come from a European cultural background, our idea of the Iron Age tends to focus on the Middle East and the Mediterranean Basin, however, it should not be forgotten that evidence of iron working that could date back to 1800BC has been found in Uttar Pradesh in India, where it seems to be associated with the migrations of the Vedic People. The evidence includes slag, tuyeres and remains of furnaces.

If we think of the "The Iron Age" in terms of the entire world, I really do think that that the opinion that the Iron Age began with Greece and Cyprus is a rather limited point of view.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, I do not understand what is meant by "the Iron Age Proper", however the Hittites were the first technologically advanced people to produce iron tools, artifacts and weapons in any considerable number, and the Hittites had developed viable iron tools and weapons by about 1500BC.

The Hittite Empire collapsed in about 1200BC, and immediately after this collapse the rise of iron technology occurred in Cyprus and Greece. With the rise of iron technology in Greece there was a leap in production of iron artifacts. Also from about 1200 BC we have the first evidence from Cyprus of iron with a carbon content --- ie, steel --- that has been quenched.

It appears that although iron with a carbon content has been found from earlier dates, there was no consistency in the carburisation process, it was an accidental carburisation that had resulted from carburisation in the forge, rather than carburisation in a bloomery. However, carbon content of iron by itself is not enough to produce a tool or weapon that is markedly superior to bronze, that iron with the carbon content needs to be heated and quenched. It would seem that this did not occur until after about 1200BC, so maybe that is what is meant by "Iron Age Proper" .

While it is true that the Ancient Egyptians did cold forge meteoritic material to produce talismans, they did not begin to produce iron tools and weapons until about 500-600BC, when iron smelting technology became available.

Egypt at the time of Tutankhamen did not possess the technology to produce a blade like the KT dagger, but the Hittites did, and there were diplomatic and marriage ties between the Egyptian court and the Hittite court.

An Afterthought

For those of us who come from a European cultural background, our idea of the Iron Age tends to focus on the Middle East and the Mediterranean Basin, however, it should not be forgotten that evidence of iron working that could date back to 1800BC has been found in Uttar Pradesh in India, where it seems to be associated with the migrations of the Vedic People. The evidence includes slag, tuyeres and remains of furnaces.

If we think of the "The Iron Age" in terms of the entire world, I really do think that that the opinion that the Iron Age began with Greece and Cyprus is a rather limited point of view.

Alan, i was not trying to create an new or confusing terminology by referring to the "Iron Age proper". It is simply that 1200 BC is the date that most historians seem to agree on for the beginning of the Iron Age. I believe i was quite clear that knowledge of forging iron was in existence for at least hundreds of years before this date, but i suppose that historians tend to not mark us as being fully into the Iron Age until the process became more commonplace rather than a technology held by just a single civilization.
Now, i am still not convinced that the process described here for determining the origins of the material for the KT dagger is fool proof or accurate, but if we are to assume that the dagger is indeed made from meteoric ore then i see no reason why it could not have been made by Egyptians in 1300 BC since forging with a big chunk of iron meteorite apparently does not require the use of smelting technology.
This, of course, does not count out the possibility that it might have been a gift from the Hittites. There was know communication between these two great civilizations and apparently King Tut's widow sought to marry a Hittite prince soon after her husband's death.
"A crisis of succession gripped the royal court. With power plays and intrigues surely seething around her, Tut's widow, Ankhesenamun, appears to have launched a coup of her own, sending desperate letters to the king of the Hittites in Anatolia. "My husband is dead," she wrote. "Send me your son and I will make him king." It was an unprecedented request, but understandable. "Her grandmother was Queen Tiye, one of the most powerful queens Egypt ever saw," Ray Johnson explained. "Her mother was Nefertiti. They ruled as living goddesses, so of course Ankhesenamun felt she had the same power. And she found out that she didn't."
A Hittite prince, Zannanza, was eventually sent south to marry her, but he was killed—by a hit squad, some speculate—as he entered Egyptian territory. An elder courtier named Aye, possibly Ankhesenamun's grandfather, then became pharaoh."
But there is a reason the move that King Tut's widow attempted is considered "unprecedented".
It was the era from about 1500-1200 BC that Egypt had the most contact with the Hittites. However, they were for much of that time an adversary if not an outright enemy of the Egyptians. The Hittites were more likely to desire planting such a dagger into the heart of the Egyptian pharaoh rather than gifting it to him. It was Ramses II who brokered the first peace treaty with the Hittites in 1258 BC, but that was not until nearly a century after the death of King Tut. It is actually acknowledged by many historians as the first peace treaty ever recorded by both sides. He did indeed marry a Hittite princess a few years later. I am not aware of any particular diplomatic relationship during King Tut's time or before where the Hittites would be likely to gift a beautiful dagger such as this one to the Egyptian pharaoh, nor any intermarriages between these courts before Ramses II.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your further comments David.

I was not suggesting that you originated the "Iron Age Proper" terminology, it is a term that is fairly commonly encountered in texts that deal specifically with the Iron Age, and in texts that take a broad general view of history. It represents one point of view of the academics who are specialists in these fields, it is not a universal opinion.

I am not specialist in either Iron Age history or general history, I have only a slight knowledge of both, but I have read over many years many texts dealing with both fields, and I have formed the opinion that I tend to agree with the people who place the beginning of the Iron Age quite a bit earlier than the point at which Greece and Cyprus became involved.

Some historians adopt one point of view, some historians adopt a different point of view.
Two different opinions.
I incline towards one of these opinions, and question the validity of the other.

Thus, when I wrote that "--- I do not understand what is meant by "the Iron Age Proper"---", this is exactly what I meant. It was not an oblique comment, it can be taken at face value, and it refers only to my personal understanding.

However, what historians do seem to agree on is that Egypt did not begin to work with ferric material until iron smelting technology became widely available around 600BC.

It is true that a piece of meteoritic material can be cold forged into a reasonably compact form, it is also true that a piece of meteoritic material can be worked in a forge.

However, the technology required to do this, and the skill needed to apply that technology does not come out of a clear blue sky, it leaves evidence of its development, and in the case of Ancient Egypt this evidence is not present.

The Iron Age came to Egypt when iron smelting technology became widely available, and that was around 600BC.

The KT dagger can be dated to around 1300BC.

We have in the KT dagger a particular artefact, that required a particular technology and a particular skill to produce.

There is no evidence of that technology and skill existing in Egypt at or prior to the date of the KT dagger.

There is evidence of the technology and skill existing in Anatolia at the date of the KT dagger, and for a considerable time before this date.

The raw material used in Anatolia was probably haematite, it might have been magnetite, it could have been limonite, it was almost certainly not generally meteorite, but in very early items, it might have been.

The reason for the rise of iron technology is often misunderstood. Quite simply the ingredients needed to produce bronze were localised and difficult to obtain, on the other hand sources of ferric material are widespread and can be found almost everywhere. People turned to iron because of availability and then developed the technology needed to work it. Early iron artefacts were not really superior to bronze, it was only when carburisation was understood that ferric materials became a better product than bronze.

In fact, we are not talking about the dagger as a whole, we are only talking about the blade, the mounts are Egyptian. Dagger blades were recognised as acceptable gifts between rulers at this time in history.

The core question here is the way in which the Jambon findings are to be understood. In my opinion Jambon has produced a hypothesis, he has not produced a theory, and he has not produced proof of meteoritic origin of the KT dagger.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The KT dagger can be dated to around 1300BC.

We have in the KT dagger a particular artefact, that required a particular technology and a particular skill to produce.

There is no evidence of that technology and skill existing in Egypt at or prior to the date of the KT dagger.

There is evidence of the technology and skill existing in Anatolia at the date of the KT dagger, and for a considerable time before this date.

The raw material used in Anatolia was probably haematite, it might have been magnetite, it could have been limonite, it was almost certainly not generally meteorite, but in very early items, it might have been.

In fact, we are not talking about the dagger as a whole, we are only talking about the blade, the mounts are Egyptian. Dagger blades were recognised as acceptable gifts between rulers at this time in history.

The core question here is the way in which the Jambon findings are to be understood. In my opinion Jambon has produced a hypothesis, he has not produced a theory, and he has not produced proof of meteoritic origin of the KT dagger.

On the last note Alan i believe i have made it clear that we are in agreement.
I have certainly not ruled out that the KT blade may have come from a source outside of Egypt, however, if we are looking for evidence, i don't believe we can find much evidence that the Hittites would have gifted such a blade to any of the pharaohs of Egypt as they were in a rather continuous adversarial state previous to the peace treaty brokered by Ramses II in 1258 BC. Perhaps it may have been a war capture and seeing how iron in Egypt was seen at that point as a metal associated with royalty and power it may have found its way to the pharaoh. I just see no evidence that these two super powers of their day were giving gifts to one another at this point in history.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I think we are largely in agreement David, however, you misunderstand me if you believe that I am claiming that the KT dagger was a gift from the Hittite court to the ruler of Egypt.

How could I possibly make such a claim? This would be pure supposition and I do try my best not get involved in such nonsense.

What I do claim is that manufacture of the KT dagger blade required an advanced level of iron working skill and technology.

In 1300BC this skill and technology did not exist in Egypt, but it did exist in Anatolia. the people who inhabited Anatolia were Hittites, the Hittite people were the ones who at this time in history did have the skill and the technology to make the KT dagger blade.

The Hittite court had connections with the court of Egypt.

At this time in history iron dagger blades were considered to be suitable gifts for royalty.

How the KT dagger blade got from Anatolia to Egypt I have no idea at all, but I do posit that it was of Anatolian origin.

[rasdan]

Hello everybody,

Coincidentally, early last month a guy in YouTube uploaded his experiment in forging meteorite. Campo del Cielo meteorite to be exact. What I can say is that it looked very very difficult. The presentation can be annoying at times but the content is very interesting. We can finally witness the difficulties in forging this material if we do not know how to do it.

Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr_5tIPP3dM

Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-QWol38NA0

Other videos showing successful attempts are also available in Youtube.

Rasdan

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by David

It was the era from about 1500-1200 BC that Egypt had the most contact with the Hittites. However, they were for much of that time an adversary if not an outright enemy of the Egyptians. The Hittites were more likely to desire planting such a dagger into the heart of the Egyptian pharaoh rather than gifting it to him. It was Ramses II who brokered the first peace treaty with the Hittites in 1258 BC, but that was not until nearly a century after the death of King Tut. It is actually acknowledged by many historians as the first peace treaty ever recorded by both sides. He did indeed marry a Hittite princess a few years later. I am not aware of any particular diplomatic relationship during King Tut's time or before where the Hittites would be likely to gift a beautiful dagger such as this one to the Egyptian pharaoh, nor any intermarriages between these courts before Ramses II.

Hello David,
King Tut's dagger being a gift from the Hittites is just one of many possibilities. It can very well be a booty from an earlier confrontation or simply a blade smuggled by some unscrupulous merchant.
Anyhow, as we know so little about this blade, everything is open to speculation.
Regards,
Marius

[David]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello David,
King Tut's dagger being a gift from the Hittites is just one of many possibilities. It can very well be a booty from an earlier confrontation or simply a blade smuggled by some unscrupulous merchant.
Anyhow, as we know so little about this blade, everything is open to speculation.
Regards,
Marius

Agreed Marius. I just don't see much evidence of any positive diplomacy between these two great empires at this early date. Some things we will never know for sure.

[A. G. Maisey]

The first thing we do know for sure is that iron working in Egypt began with the wide availability of iron smelting technology around 600BC.

Iron working in Anatolia began hundreds of years earlier. By about 1400 BC there was ongoing production of iron artifacts by the Hittites.

The second thing we do know for sure is that Rameses II (?) led an army of tens of thousands ---- 10K, 20K, 30K ? --- against the Hittites in the second half of the 1200's BC. This resulted in a battle at Qadesh.

The Egyptians were a major technologically advanced power, so were the Hittites, they were evenly matched and they both claimed that they won, another way of thinking about Qadesh is that they both lost.

In any case, what it boils down to is this:- prior to Qadesh the Hittites had been an ongoing problem for the Egyptians, Qadesh did not settle things immediately, and there was further aggravation on both sides after Qadesh, but 15 or 20 years after Qadesh the Egyptians and the Hittites had a sit-down and agreed a treaty of peace. My understanding is that a modern copy of this treaty is in the headquarters of the UN in New York. It is believed to be the first international peace treaty.

Peace Treaties do not come into existence in the absence of diplomacy. Diplomacy also thrives in the lead up to wars. Ancient leaders were no more stupid than modern leaders:- nobody wants war if it can be avoided.

A superficial time line looks like this:-

pre-1500BC iron working technology begins in Anatolia, the Hittite People inhabit Anatolia

1400BC iron working technology used by Hittite nation for manufacture of weapons

1300 to 1200BC ongoing Egyptian and Hittite conflicts culminating in the Battle of Qadesh, which ultimately generates the world's first peace treaty.

Interestingly King Tutankhamen died in about 1300BC.

We cannot claim to know the exact circumstances under which KT got hold of his dagger, but if we can recall our high school history lessons we do have virtually irrefutable evidence for exactly where that dagger blade came from.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Peace Treaties do not come into existence in the absence of diplomacy. Diplomacy also thrives in the lead up to wars. Ancient leaders were no more stupid than modern leaders:- nobody wants war if it can be avoided.

We cannot claim to know the exact circumstances under which KT got hold of his dagger, but if we can recall our high school history lessons we do have virtually irrefutable evidence for exactly where that dagger blade came from.

Certainly some diplomacy was at work in the day of Ramses II before this peace treaty went into effect. This was a result of the Battle of Qadesh, so the two great powers already were at war. But i cannot find much, if any diplomacy between Hittites and the Eqyptians before this time.
There is plenty of records of correspondences between Egypt and other smaller powers in the area, especially with the Mitanni kingdom who were once rivals of Egypt, but joined forces with them for protection from the Hittites. There is apparently even actual clay tablet correspondence between the King of Mitanni and King Tut's grandfather, Amenhoep III that mentions a dagger sent to the Pharaoh that was booty from the Hittites. Who knows, perhaps this is the very dagger of our current conversation that was left to King Tut from his grandfather and eventual entombed with the boy king when he died.
"We also know that iron dagger blades were important enough to be mentioned in diplomatic correspondence. The best-known example is a letter from King Tushratta of Mitanni (today in northern Iraq and Syria) detailing a dowry of his daughter who was to be sent as a bride to Tutankhamun’s grandfather, King Amenhotep III. This letter intriguingly refers to a dagger blade of “habalkinu”, a poorly documented word derived from the ancient Hittite language that some linguists have translated as “steel”."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7066216.html

[motan]

I really don't know anything about forging, but I do have some afterthoughts..
On one hand, the Hittites had both iron and diplomatic relationship with the Egypt (truce was signed during Tut's reign), so that there certainly could have given iron blades as present to the pharaoh.
One the other hand, Egyptians had a centuries long tradition of working meteorite iron, as did other peoples in the Eastern Mediterranean.

However, this is all irrelevant, because analysis of the composition of the blade shows composition typical of meteorite iron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutank...n_dagger_blade). As far as I know, such high nickel does not occur in normal iron ore and no ancient culture mined or smelted nickel. So, for me this case is closed.

Further, it is mentioned in the thread that early iron was not superior to bronze for tools. But another main advantage of iron has been missed here. Iron ore is much more common=cheaper than bronze, as it is today.
Lastly, the spread of iron working following the bronze-age collapse is discussed in the Old Testament. In Samuel, Saul complains that there are no lances an swords in Israel because the Philistines monopolize iron working. The Israelites have to go to Philistines, their enemies even to sharpen and mend their tools - plows, axes and spades are mentioned.

[David]

Originally Posted by motan

On one hand, the Hittites had both iron and diplomatic relationship with the Egypt (truce was signed during Tut's reign), so that there certainly could have given iron blades as present to the pharaoh.

Can you tell us what truce was signed with the Hittites during Tut's reign?

[motan]

Sorry David, you are right, of course. I, like some others here, have mixed up my pharaohs. The treaty was signed in Ramses II's time, about 60-80 years later than Tutankhamun's reign. You got me there.
But the rest arguments are valid. There are several pre iron-age iron artifacts found in the Middle-East, India and China and not all of them can be identified as meteorite iron, but 10% or more Nickel in iron is difficult to explain in other way than meteorite origin, or do you have another explanation?

[David]

Originally Posted by motan

Sorry David, you are right, of course. I, like some others here, have mixed up my pharaohs. The treaty was signed in Ramses II's time, about 60-80 years later than Tutankhamun's reign. You got me there.
But the rest arguments are valid. There are several pre iron-age iron artifacts found in the Middle-East, India and China and not all of them can be identified as meteorite iron, but 10% or more Nickel in iron is difficult to explain in other way than meteorite origin, or do you have another explanation?

Well Motan, i'm not suggesting any explanations here, only looking for something more than speculation and conjecture that might help solve some of these mysteries. Alan has put forth that the KT must have originated from the Hittites, that there is no other possibility. I remain a little more open to the question. He also has suggested that the testing process that has identified this blade as meteorite could be flawed. I tend to agree that this testing processes isn't fool proof. So maybe the blade is meteorite and maybe it is not. If it is not i think that Alan is probably right, the Hittites were really the only group that had the technology to smelt iron and make a blade from terrestrial iron at this time. If indeed the KT blade is terrestrial then it may have come to KT threw various avenues. I am not convinced that the diplomacy existed between these two great powers at that time that the Hittites themselves would have gifted it to the pharaoh directly, but it may have come indirectly to the Egyptian court. However, if the blade actually is meteorite i am also not convinced that the Egyptians couldn't have made it themselves since apparently meteorite can be forged without being smelted and the Egyptians had been working with meteorite for almost 2000 years before the time of Tutankhamun. So this is a metal that they were familiar working with and highly valued. Could the Egyptian have created the KT dagger on their own? I would not count that possibility out even if i do believe it is more likely to have a Hittite origin.

[motan]

Hi David, I don"t want this to become too lengthy, but still..
Diplomatic relation between Hatti and Egypt certainly existed around that time. Suppiluliuma I, the contemporary Hittite king, wanted to wed his son to Tutankhamun's widow, but the boy died before it happened. The Hittite wanted a front against common enemies like the Hurrians and Mittani.
Since the advent of the New Kingdom in Egypt, Pharaohs have been campaigning in Syria, Canaan and Lebanon, where they must have met with the Hettites in battle. They could obtain iron blades from the slain or captures.

Anyway, I am a scientist by training, so if there are lab results, I believe them at least until the next results. Is this 100% sure? Of course not, but it is real evidence and you need real evidence to refute it,
Eytan