Jineta/nimcha/kattara

Gonzalo G · 27th July 2017, 05:20 AM

Take note of the quillons in the figure No.54, and see the similarities with the Qattara.
An image of the swords studied by Nicolle in this study on the page 154:

Gonzalo G · 27th July 2017, 05:22 AM

Note the presence of the spherical pommel, not to be confused with a discoidal pommel, more common on the European swords. This pommel maybe will evolve to the more dome-shaped with a finial as in the Nasrid swords, or maybe the last is a late stylistic import into North Africa or to Al-Andalus through North Africa. The provenance of this swords, in the opinion of most of the specialists, including Oakeshott, is occidental North Africa, around the 12th Century.
There are more illustrations in the study from Nicolle, which can be downloaded here:

Note the presence of the spherical pommel, not to be confused with a discoidal pommel, more common on the European swords. This pommel maybe will evolve to the more dome-shaped with a finial as in the Nasrid swords, or maybe the last is a late stylistic import into North Africa or to Al-Andalus through North Africa. The provenance of this swords, in the opinion of most of the specialists, including Oakeshott, is occidental North Africa, around the 12th Century.
There are more illustrations in the study from Nicolle, which can be downloaded here:

http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/inde...download/59/60

Gonzalo G · 27th July 2017, 05:27 AM

The finial of the late Nasrid sword could be a development of this type of pommel, from a sword hilt described as shared Mediterranean and Middle Eastern style, 11th Century, David Nicolle and Angus McBride, The Moors. The Islamic West 7th – 15th Centuries AD, p.10

Gonzalo G · 27th July 2017, 05:28 AM

Please take notice of the finial, and also the type of quillons. They began to resemble those of the nimcha, or it is my imagination? More than any quillons in an European sword? Is there any European sword from the 11th Century or before with this type of quillons? I would like to see a picture, since I have not enough bibliography. And also see the broad blade. The provenance is unknown, but the sword is in the Museo del Ejército in Madrid. Given the globular pommel and other features, it is not difficult to imagine the origin, especially when Nicolle says “…the artistic evidence supports the idea that the spherical pommel was a Middle Eastern and Mediterranean fashion…” (David Nicolle, “Two Swords from the Foundation of Gibraltar”, Gladius, Vol. XXII, 2002, p.174).
Not unlikely also North African. And one must take into account that North Africa and Al-Andalus, contrary to common ideas, were culturally more sophisticated than the rest of Europe during all the Middle Ages.

Gonzalo G · 27th July 2017, 05:30 AM

The broadswords with downcurved quillons came to the Iberic Peninsula since the early Muslim rule, as stated in the bibliography given by Marc, to which I add the study by Rafael Carmona Ávila, already mentioned. But until the 11th Century those swords have not yet the type of quillons found in the Nasrid swords. Those last came in two types: ceremonial (more apltly denominated “dress swords”, the type of sword used by Boabdil) and fighting. An example of the last is seen in the article from Berástegui Lizeaga, Crespo Francés y Valero y Rosado Galdós, “Identificación de una Espada Jineta de Guerra”, Trabajos de Arqueología Navarra, No. 18, 2005, pp.91 to 112 (it can be downloaded from the Internet):

Gonzalo G · 27th July 2017, 05:32 AM

This sword has more taper, no central fuller and more space to place the index finger over the quillons and under the blade. This is one of the very few existing jineta fighting swords, so we don’t know how representative is of his type. How can we fill the gap between the Muslim sword from the 10th-11th Centuries backwards with this new type? The only information we have is that the Berber Zenetes arrived in Al-Andalús around the 12th Century, and I quote again the work by Nicolle on the Gibraltar swords:

“A new type of sword and its associated tactics are believed to have been introduced to the Iberian peninsula by Berber mercenaries and conquerors in the 11th-12th centuries, perhaps as a precursor to or early version of the jinete light cavalry tactics clearly introduced from North Africa in the 13th-14th centuries. Light cavalry combat a la jinete was again associated with what western European came to know as the Italian Grip and, according to some scholars, with curved quillons 10. In fact the term jinete comes from Zanata, the tribe from which many of the Berber soldiers of both Granada and Morocco came. Their highly effective light cavalry tactics using minimal armour, light leather shields, relatively light swords and javelins thrown from horseback were adopted first by the native Andalusian troops of Granada, then by their Christian Iberian foes, and eventually by some other European cavalry as well.” Nicolle, Ibid., p.158.
Even if we concur with Marc in the fact that there are vague descriptions of the morphology of the jineta swords, we can establish: first, that the Zenetes Benimerines were the main military force under the Nasrid Emirate of Granada to almost its fall, so it is very likely that their military equipment dominate the military fashion of the emirate; second, the fighting sword already shown corresponds with the description, since it is not a broadsword, but a very tapered one, less heavy and more apt to pierce the evolved plate armor of the Christians (the cuirass); third, the quillons are more narrow and allow the “Italian grip” with more protection to the index finger than those given by the quillons of the traditional Muslim sword, since they almost close on the blade, like the later fingerguards, to which they very possibly evolved in time (see Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer, Idem., pp.32 and 34); the so-called Italian grip favored a more accurate thrust, which corresponds with the intended piercing action of the tapered blade; the Zenete sword was different to the classic Muslim broadsword, this is why it called strongly the atention in the Al-Andalus and Christian spheres, not only the morphology of the hilt and the quillons was different to the known Muslim broadswords from Al-Andalus, but also the morphology of the blade, and the souces insist that they were lighter; the difference among the dress swords and the fighting swords could be great in the Iberic Peninsula, just see how it evolved the rapier as a dress sword different from the military.

Gonzalo G · 27th July 2017, 05:34 AM

Of course, the cultural interactions among the Christian and Muslim worlds were strong, but not in the simplistic way the European-centered specialists have written about. It was not a matter of fashion influences, but of military needs, which involved the style of fencing, the type of armour of the foe, the metallurgical capability to produce certain types of blades, etc. In this sense, it must be noted that the fighting jineta sword must be materially produced as a capable weapon. As any swordcraftsman or knifecraftsman knows, when the quality of materials is good enough, wider or thicker blades must be produced, in order to secure that the blade would not be broken or bended. Also, the broadswords could be used very effectively against certain types of body protection. The military evolution carried the need of a more tapered sword, but it only would be possible through better production methods, better quality of blades. A tapered sword not only have more thrusting capability, but also displaced the center of gravity toward the hand, a feature which gave more speed and maneuverability to the handling of the sword, which in turn modified the style of fencing. The production of tapered blades was initiated in Europe probably by the carolingian sword masters:

“The reign of Charlemagne also witnessed a significant change in the shape of the longsword blade. On earlier swords, the edges had run parallel for most of the length of the blade, then converged sharply a little way above the point. After about 800, however, the edges of the blade tapered gradually from hilt to tip, with the result that the centre of gravity shifted toward the sword grip, making the weapon significantly more maneuverable and facilitating swordplay. “
“To the south of the empire, the Saracens likewise recognized the quality of Carolingian swords, as is indicated by their demand for one hundred fifty such weapons as part of the ransom for Archbishop Rotland of Arles in 869.However, the Franks seem to have prized Saracen swords equally highly…”
“To summarize, as a result of technological changes during the reign of Charlemagne, the ninth-century Frankish sword was a considerably stronger and more maneuverable weapon than its antecedents. The swords’ signed blades and high cost both reflected the superior quality which made them greatly sought after by other peoples, including the Scandinavians.”
Simon Coupland, “Carolingian Arms and Armor in the Ninth Century”, en Viator. Medieval and Renaissance Studies, v.21 (1990).

27th July 2017, 05:20 AM	#1
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Take note of the quillons in the figure No.54, and see the similarities with the Qattara. An image of the swords studied by Nicolle in this study on the page 154: Attached Images

27th July 2017, 05:27 AM	#3
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	The finial of the late Nasrid sword could be a development of this type of pommel, from a sword hilt described as shared Mediterranean and Middle Eastern style, 11th Century, David Nicolle and Angus McBride, The Moors. The Islamic West 7th – 15th Centuries AD, p.10 Attached Images

27th July 2017, 05:30 AM	#5
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	The broadswords with downcurved quillons came to the Iberic Peninsula since the early Muslim rule, as stated in the bibliography given by Marc, to which I add the study by Rafael Carmona Ávila, already mentioned. But until the 11th Century those swords have not yet the type of quillons found in the Nasrid swords. Those last came in two types: ceremonial (more apltly denominated “dress swords”, the type of sword used by Boabdil) and fighting. An example of the last is seen in the article from Berástegui Lizeaga, Crespo Francés y Valero y Rosado Galdós, “Identificación de una Espada Jineta de Guerra”, Trabajos de Arqueología Navarra, No. 18, 2005, pp.91 to 112 (it can be downloaded from the Internet): Attached Images

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27th July 2017, 05:22 AM	#2
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Note the presence of the spherical pommel, not to be confused with a discoidal pommel, more common on the European swords. This pommel maybe will evolve to the more dome-shaped with a finial as in the Nasrid swords, or maybe the last is a late stylistic import into North Africa or to Al-Andalus through North Africa. The provenance of this swords, in the opinion of most of the specialists, including Oakeshott, is occidental North Africa, around the 12th Century. There are more illustrations in the study from Nicolle, which can be downloaded here: Note the presence of the spherical pommel, not to be confused with a discoidal pommel, more common on the European swords. This pommel maybe will evolve to the more dome-shaped with a finial as in the Nasrid swords, or maybe the last is a late stylistic import into North Africa or to Al-Andalus through North Africa. The provenance of this swords, in the opinion of most of the specialists, including Oakeshott, is occidental North Africa, around the 12th Century. There are more illustrations in the study from Nicolle, which can be downloaded here: http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/inde...download/59/60

27th July 2017, 05:28 AM	#4
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Please take notice of the finial, and also the type of quillons. They began to resemble those of the nimcha, or it is my imagination? More than any quillons in an European sword? Is there any European sword from the 11th Century or before with this type of quillons? I would like to see a picture, since I have not enough bibliography. And also see the broad blade. The provenance is unknown, but the sword is in the Museo del Ejército in Madrid. Given the globular pommel and other features, it is not difficult to imagine the origin, especially when Nicolle says “…the artistic evidence supports the idea that the spherical pommel was a Middle Eastern and Mediterranean fashion…” (David Nicolle, “Two Swords from the Foundation of Gibraltar”, Gladius, Vol. XXII, 2002, p.174). Not unlikely also North African. And one must take into account that North Africa and Al-Andalus, contrary to common ideas, were culturally more sophisticated than the rest of Europe during all the Middle Ages.

27th July 2017, 05:32 AM	#6
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	This sword has more taper, no central fuller and more space to place the index finger over the quillons and under the blade. This is one of the very few existing jineta fighting swords, so we don’t know how representative is of his type. How can we fill the gap between the Muslim sword from the 10th-11th Centuries backwards with this new type? The only information we have is that the Berber Zenetes arrived in Al-Andalús around the 12th Century, and I quote again the work by Nicolle on the Gibraltar swords: “A new type of sword and its associated tactics are believed to have been introduced to the Iberian peninsula by Berber mercenaries and conquerors in the 11th-12th centuries, perhaps as a precursor to or early version of the jinete light cavalry tactics clearly introduced from North Africa in the 13th-14th centuries. Light cavalry combat a la jinete was again associated with what western European came to know as the Italian Grip and, according to some scholars, with curved quillons 10. In fact the term jinete comes from Zanata, the tribe from which many of the Berber soldiers of both Granada and Morocco came. Their highly effective light cavalry tactics using minimal armour, light leather shields, relatively light swords and javelins thrown from horseback were adopted first by the native Andalusian troops of Granada, then by their Christian Iberian foes, and eventually by some other European cavalry as well.” Nicolle, Ibid., p.158. Even if we concur with Marc in the fact that there are vague descriptions of the morphology of the jineta swords, we can establish: first, that the Zenetes Benimerines were the main military force under the Nasrid Emirate of Granada to almost its fall, so it is very likely that their military equipment dominate the military fashion of the emirate; second, the fighting sword already shown corresponds with the description, since it is not a broadsword, but a very tapered one, less heavy and more apt to pierce the evolved plate armor of the Christians (the cuirass); third, the quillons are more narrow and allow the “Italian grip” with more protection to the index finger than those given by the quillons of the traditional Muslim sword, since they almost close on the blade, like the later fingerguards, to which they very possibly evolved in time (see Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer, Idem., pp.32 and 34); the so-called Italian grip favored a more accurate thrust, which corresponds with the intended piercing action of the tapered blade; the Zenete sword was different to the classic Muslim broadsword, this is why it called strongly the atention in the Al-Andalus and Christian spheres, not only the morphology of the hilt and the quillons was different to the known Muslim broadswords from Al-Andalus, but also the morphology of the blade, and the souces insist that they were lighter; the difference among the dress swords and the fighting swords could be great in the Iberic Peninsula, just see how it evolved the rapier as a dress sword different from the military.

27th July 2017, 05:34 AM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Of course, the cultural interactions among the Christian and Muslim worlds were strong, but not in the simplistic way the European-centered specialists have written about. It was not a matter of fashion influences, but of military needs, which involved the style of fencing, the type of armour of the foe, the metallurgical capability to produce certain types of blades, etc. In this sense, it must be noted that the fighting jineta sword must be materially produced as a capable weapon. As any swordcraftsman or knifecraftsman knows, when the quality of materials is good enough, wider or thicker blades must be produced, in order to secure that the blade would not be broken or bended. Also, the broadswords could be used very effectively against certain types of body protection. The military evolution carried the need of a more tapered sword, but it only would be possible through better production methods, better quality of blades. A tapered sword not only have more thrusting capability, but also displaced the center of gravity toward the hand, a feature which gave more speed and maneuverability to the handling of the sword, which in turn modified the style of fencing. The production of tapered blades was initiated in Europe probably by the carolingian sword masters: “The reign of Charlemagne also witnessed a significant change in the shape of the longsword blade. On earlier swords, the edges had run parallel for most of the length of the blade, then converged sharply a little way above the point. After about 800, however, the edges of the blade tapered gradually from hilt to tip, with the result that the centre of gravity shifted toward the sword grip, making the weapon significantly more maneuverable and facilitating swordplay. “ “To the south of the empire, the Saracens likewise recognized the quality of Carolingian swords, as is indicated by their demand for one hundred fifty such weapons as part of the ransom for Archbishop Rotland of Arles in 869.However, the Franks seem to have prized Saracen swords equally highly…” “To summarize, as a result of technological changes during the reign of Charlemagne, the ninth-century Frankish sword was a considerably stronger and more maneuverable weapon than its antecedents. The swords’ signed blades and high cost both reflected the superior quality which made them greatly sought after by other peoples, including the Scandinavians.” Simon Coupland, “Carolingian Arms and Armor in the Ninth Century”, en Viator. Medieval and Renaissance Studies, v.21 (1990).