Knives from the San Giorgia auction

[corrado26]

"armas blancas" in Spain, "armes blanches" in France and "Blankwaffen" in Germany are in my opinion all arms with blades of all materials.
corrado26

[fernando]

Originally Posted by corrado26

"armas blancas" in Spain, "armes blanches" in France and "Blankwaffen" in Germany are in my opinion all arms with blades of all materials.
corrado26

As also "armas brancas" in Portugal. I guess you should consider the term in its different acceptations; coloquial, legal and etymologic. Over here they are currently considered as edged weapons, but legally they are all non firearms weapons ... those not only for offense/defense but also for domestic use. On the other hand, the term may (may) have its origin in the 'white' shade steel of sword blades, presumably of Moorish origin and brought to the Peninsula.


.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

As also "armas brancas" in Portugal. I guess you should consider the term in its different acceptations; coloquial, legal and etymologic. Over here they are currently considered as edged weapons, but legally they are all non firearms weapons ... those not only for offense/defense but also for domestic use. On the other hand, the term may (may) have its origin in the 'white' shade steel of sword blades, presumably of Moorish origin and brought to the Peninsula.


.

Actually, it is the old debate about if the popular (or vulgar, as we say in Spanish) use of some word and its associated meaning should consacrate its valiidty and inclusion in the official languaje, substituting the original word-meaning, which was the proper one. It involves also the subject of the corruption of language, due ignorance, external influences (from other languages), or some other cause. The Royal Academy of the Spanish Language (Real Academia de la Lengua Española), the ultimate authority on the subject of the Spanish language and of the different meanings of the words, defines "arma blanca" as an "offensive weapon whose blade is made from iron or steel, like the sword":

http://dle.rae.es/?id=3a3iLLv

Now, one of the greatest Spanish authorities on the matter, Dn. Enrique de Leguina, in his Glossary of Voices of Armory (Glosario de Voces de Armería, Librería de Felipe Rodríguez, Madrid, España, 1912), on page 85, defines "armas blancas" also as those made from iron or steel. You can download the book here:


https://archive.org/details/glosariodevocesd00leguuoft

This is also the meaning given to this words by the cultured Spanish-speaking specialists on the matter, stricto senso. Of course, it can have also, lato sensu, on the street, the meaning of any metal weapon not beign fireweapon, or even any weapon beign a non-firingweapon, but apart from beign vague, one of the rules to define a concept, or to formulate a definition, is to enumerate positively what it is, and not what it is not. "Armas blancas" is a very precise and specific concept in Spanish. We have an equivalent for "edged weapons", which is "armas de corte", which includes all edged weapons, even those made from flint or obsidian, but not maces, flails, macanas (those are called "contundent weapons", but are "armas blancas" only if made of iron or steel), etc. If not made from steel or iron, what would be the case to call them "blancas-bianche-white"?

And if this a matter of controvery, alow me to rephrase: "Is the same in Castilian (Spanish). The term "armas blancas" properly means weapons made of steel..."

Fer, "armas" also designated the armour of a knight, including his shield. A knight just made or "armoured" could not had the right to use personal badge-emblem-ensign over his armour and shield, as he had not commited yet any feat. So the term "armas blancas" in Spanish-Castilian originally meant the armour and shield carried without badge-emblem-ensign by knight. Nothing over his armour or shield made of iron and/or steel (which is blanco-white), thus "armas blancas", a knight with "armas blancas". And by extension, a little latter the term was applied to his steel weapons. Please consult Enrique Leguina.

Regards

[fernando]

Caro Gonzalo

I do have Leguina works, including the one you mention. I am also aware of the white/blancas/brancas arms/armas interpretations in the various contexts, namely those in current dictionaries as also in legal classifications. The portuguese dictionary reads: object of polished steel, which serves to cut or perforate. The portuguese arms law reads: all object or portable instrument provided with a blade or other cutting or perforating surface of length equal or superior to 10 cms. or with a cutting/perforating part, as well as destined to throw blades, arrows or bolts, independently from its dimensons. The bow figures in an article alone but is also included in the white arms legl concept.
Further coloquial interpretations are also aknowledged, like the one you mention being the 'novel' knight without 'arms/insigns' in his shield, a specific concept, notwithstanding other rules like those of the Templars, who never bore heraldic insigns but only the typical cross. The term (white) blanco can extend so far as meaning 'target' in castillian.
But if i may and recuperating the real issue that i have approached, the question is: why is the word 'white' intrinsic to edged weapons. I have previously said that, the term was due to the white of the blade steel and may (may) have been brought over by the Moors. Well, it seems as i was only wrong in one of the premises. I went back consulting a couple sources and the assumption i found is that :

As from the XVIII century, with the development of the pistol, the haquebut and the cannon, the concept 'arm' gained two sub-species: firearms, which used the energy of gunpowder, and the white arms, generaly equiped with a blade, which depended from human arms strength.
It then happens that, the Bluteau dictionary (1720) distinguishes firearms from white arms, the late called as such, he says, "because they were of whitened or silvered steel" (usefull to remember that white comes from the germanic blank, "shining, polished, white", which combines perfectly with the looking of steel)
The expression white arm, therefore, is nothing more than one of the first examples of retronímia (or retroformation, as preferred by some)

Obviously this leaves a gap, in that early kights armour wad also called white arms ... or was it not?

Abrazo


.

[Gonzalo G]

Maybe there is not a real contradiction. I don't know for sure in which moment the term extended from the blank armour to the offensive weapons in Spanish language. I doubt anyone knows. Or where this term begin to be used. It has been the matter of many controversies. We agree that it is related to the aspect of the polished steel. It could be earlier than the 18th Century, and the time-lapse would be closed. Or, as it is implied in your post, it could be adopter latter. But maybe the advent of the fireweapons, as said in your text, was a decisive element in this change of meaning (armour-to-weapons), but happenig earlier than the 18th Century. The fact is that the term, at less in castilian, was used first to the blank armour of the novel knight, as attested in the literature. The phrase "armado de punta en blanco" ("white armored from top to bottom", though this phrase could be better translated, since is a difficult old expression) is also a phrase designating a knight covered in armour from the head to the feet. Which means a knight with all the complete defensive and offensive weapons, prepared to battle.

As for the legal terminology, sadly too often legislators are not unusually people very ignorant about the correct terminologý applied to weaponry...or other matters...


Un abrazo

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... We agree that it is related to the aspect of the polished steel. It could be earlier than the 18th Century,...

Absolutey. Is easy to conclude that, in the source i quoted, the person expanding on the white arms concept adopted the date of the dictionary published by Bluteau as being date of the term origin, which is wrong. Bluteau was explaining the term, not creating it.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... But maybe the advent of the fireweapons, as said in your text, was a decisive element in this change of meaning (armour-to-weapons)...

This would have been the cause for the above confusion.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... The fact is that the term, at less in castilian, was used first to the blank armour of the novel knight, as attested in the literature...

I can't avoid looking at this from a different angle. I take it that, if the novel knight had no symbols in his shield and vests, those were considered 'blank' (for nothing). In this case, having no arms, would mean having no heraldry ensigns, as in escudo de armas.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...The phrase "armado de punta en blanco" ("white armored from top to bottom", though this phrase could be better translated, since is a difficult old expression) is also a phrase designating a knight covered in armour from the head to the feet. Which means a knight with all the complete defensive and offensive weapons, prepared to battle..

Nothing wrong with the translation; only that its meaning ceased being applied to knights and nowadays is attributed to those nobles and peasants well dressed for a cerimony.
Bluteau is very precise: armado de ponto em banco = armado da cabeça até aos pés de armas brancas = Undique armatus. A capite ad calcem armis ... He cites well known Roman personalities like Tito Livio and Tacito using such terminology, which brings the term back to the age of Christ, something i would never realize.
Rafael Bluteau (1638-1734), a religious born in England and died in Lisbon, was a great lexicographer of the portuguese language, and was the author of the monumental Vocabulario Portugues e Latino, a ten tome work (8200 pages).

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

I can't avoid looking at this from a different angle. I take it that, if the novel knight had no symbols in his shield and vests, those were considered 'blank' (for nothing). In this case, having no arms, would mean having no heraldry ensigns, as in escudo de armas.

It is correct, Fernando. But the term also implies that nothing is over the white steel, no ensigns.

Originally Posted by fernando

Bluteau is very precise: armado de ponto em banco = armado da cabeça até aos pés de armas brancas = Undique armatus. A capite ad calcem armis ... He cites well known Roman personalities like Tito Livio and Tacito using such terminology, which brings the term back to the age of Christ, something i would never realize.
Rafael Bluteau (1638-1734), a religious born in England and died in Lisbon, was a great lexicographer of the portuguese language, and was the author of the monumental Vocabulario Portugues e Latino, a ten tome work (8200 pages).

Very interesting, I didn't know this source. I will see if I can find that work. Thank you for the reference.

Un abrazo