ratcheting mechanism on Spanish Navajas

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...We are in agreement that the ratchet can function as a backup to the main notch. However, it is also undeniable that it impedes silent, fast or inadvertent opening. So here we have three more functions, all related to opening...
Now the question remains which was paramount in the incorporation of the ratchet and why...
... As a hypothesis, and that is all this is, it is reasonable to posit that the local authorities required the presence a ratchet on all navajas, as suggested by my Spanish contact, to reduce their efficacy as weapons...
... I have an open mind on the subject, though I find the explanation of intimidation by the noise produced hard to accept...

No doubt the ratchet purpose is the one million dollar question, Chris. Personally, while in absence of hard evidence, i fail to digest that the multiple crack is a back up to the main notch; why would you have four, five or six back ups all in a row ?. On the other hand i can easily accept that, the knives with one only notch are those for domestic utility, while those with multiple cracks have a lethal vocation. And then we go on the ratchet purpose; the version i fancy is that related with the noise produced, not with safety ... and saying that, i would realize that such noise is made to warn the victim (?) that a navaja atack is iminent ... be it a law enforcement or some consuetudinary code of ethics.

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

Originally Posted by fernando

No doubt the ratchet purpose is the one million dollar question, Chris. Personally, while in absence of hard evidence, i fail to digest that the multiple crack is a back up to the main notch; why would you have four, five or six back ups all in a row ?. On the other hand i can easily accept that, the knives with one only notch are those for domestic utility, while those with multiple cracks have a lethal vocation. And then we go on the ratchet purpose; the version i fancy is that related with the noise produced, not with safety ... and saying that, i would realize that such noise is made to warn the victim (?) that a navaja atack is iminent ... be it a law enforcement or some consuetudinary code of ethics.

You raise some perplexing questions, and I'll rank them alongside another one; Why were so many navajas of the 20th century inscribed with the ubiquitous `TOLEDO' inscription, when they were actually being made in Albacete and Santa Cruz De Mudela? A common guess is that the tourists wanted to buy a piece of famous Toledo steel. So it may well be the same with the carraca.

What i find puzzling about the ratchets is that many navajas, not just Spanish but also Italian had this feature, yet so many had only three teeth, which came into play only at the final phases of opening or at the early stages of closure.

I think that we have to treat this mystery in the same way as we treat the equally mysterious notch at the heel of Nepalese Kukris, which also defies explanation.

Cheers
Chris

[kronckew]

just for devilment, the okapi ring pull knife comes from so. africa where they were made under license from solingen, where they are no longer made. the CS 'kudu' is a modernised version of the okapi (both in my photo earlier) a solingen version is also there. someone once told me more people die in so. africa by okapi than any other non-firearm related cause. the ratcheting noise doesn't stop anything from happening...

the levers on the navajas used to lift the lock out of engagement are not that easy to use in the best of circumstances, under pressure of an engagement with another trying to do the same to you would be rather difficult, if not impossible. might be a bit easier on a ring pull, but still....

[Chris Evans]

kronckew

just for devilment, the okapi ring pull knife comes from so. africa where they were made under license from solingen, where they are no longer made. the CS 'kudu' is a modernised version of the okapi (both in my photo earlier) a solingen version is also there. someone once told me more people die in so. africa by okapi than any other non-firearm related cause. the ratcheting noise doesn't stop anything from happening....

I have a 6.5" bladed South African specimen in my collection and also two Cold Steels. The Okapi does not have a carraca like feature and the two Cold Steels, one a Kudu and the other an Elan. do have a ratchet, but not in the manner of the Spanish and Italian navajas, as their four and five`teeth' respectively are rounded so as to slow down the opening/closing but do not stop the blade at any one position nor do they emit a strong noise, hardly audible in fact.

Cheers
Chris

[mariusgmioc]

We can speculate ad nausea about the primary role of the "carraca" mechanism but technically there is a clear reason for it: SAFETY. More exactly to ensure a controlled closure of the blade all the way.

While for a small or "normal" size pocket knife controlling the closure of the blade is not a problem, for a 30 cm (12") blade (quite common size for the fighting navajas) the accidental closure from an incomplete opened position can be disatrous for the owner's fingers. Hence, the necessity to provide the knife with additional safety.

All this said, there might also be the dramatic (whether intimidating, warning or simply flashy) effect of the "carraca" sound when opening the navaja.

[Lee]

Thank you Chris for your attribution of my navaja. The blade is fairly thin (0.06 inch ~ 1.52 mm). The end of the blade first engages the spring at about half open (90 degrees).

- - - - -

Lew had an old 'pull-ring to unlock' clasp knife that he regarded as French, 19th Century. It has been burnished up, but traces of age remain in the crevices. This blade is thicker and the fulcrum more robust, but with just the one stop (it may be seen sticking out in the closed photos below).

Lew must have really liked this style of knife as he also had several variations of the Okapis (both German and South African made) as well as having Kudu knock-offs.

[Chris Evans]

Lee,

That `navaja' looks very French to me, but could have come from anywhere, perhaps Italian.

The `teat' lock was much favoured in France and Italy.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Mariusgmioc,

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

We can speculate ad nausea about the primary role of the "carraca" mechanism but technically there is a clear reason for it: SAFETY. More exactly to ensure a controlled closure of the blade all the way.

While for a small or "normal" size pocket knife controlling the closure of the blade is not a problem, for a 30 cm (12") blade (quite common size for the fighting navajas) the accidental closure from an incomplete opened position can be disatrous for the owner's fingers. Hence, the necessity to provide the knife with additional safety.

All this said, there might also be the dramatic (whether intimidating, warning or simply flashy) effect of the "carraca" sound when opening the navaja.

You may well be right, but the French lockable clasp knives did not have them, except those made specifically for the Spanish market, es exemplified by Giordias.

In fact most large French `navajas' exported to Spain in the 19th century did not even have a positive lock, sporting only a robust variation of what we call the slipjoint and which I call a demi-lock.

Also Italians had ratchets on their variations of the large `navaja' but by the late 19th century the `teat' lock took over and the ratchet disappeared.

So what are we to make out off all this? Did safety suddenly become superfluous? And why did some old Spanish navajas have 15 teeth and others only three?

And here's something else to consider: With the old piclock and the later ring lock, the fingers were not threatened when intentionally closing the clasp knife. This danger only materialized with the introduction of the lever release on Spanish knives at the end of the 19th century.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Probably because i am not introduced to mechanic techniques i am not convinced that the purpose of multiple teeth is that of a continuous prevention of an unwanted blade folding, but the developing of a tradition more directed to a cultural attitude than a technical solution.
Standing way before the knowledge of universal fencing techniques, i see in (navaja) field fighting terms that is a more remote move to try and grasp the opponent’s knife with a free hand than use it to for self protection; apart from scenes viewed in old movies, we have two drawings shown in Forton’s work where the free hand is used to wrap a custom piece, eventually a jacket, to use as a shield to parry the opponent’s blows. And i can only think that a propper way to hold a ratchet knife is to lay the thumb on the latch, an easy procedure to follow.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...Well, the navajas with "globes" originated from France, so what are we to make of that ?...

So indeed the globes came from France, as consistent with Forton’s ... but were they French ? although not worthing a valid fact, the Moors invasion also reached Southern France; but more valid is that there are no rattle snakes in France. In a quick research, we find a website where the French expert defines one of these "queue de crotal" tail navajas as being made for the Spanish market, which in turn exported them to Mexico, thus the reason for the handle with a rattle snake tail.

" Il s'agit bien d'un couteau de fabrication française, fin XIXème, début XXème. A l'époque, la France produisait beaucoup de couteaux pour l'exportation. Celui ci était destiné à l'Espagne... qui l'exportait à son tour au Mexique ! (d'où l'extrémité en forme de queue de crotale)".

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

…fixed blade knives were in all ways better as both tools and weapons, so why bother with complicated and labor intensive mechanisms?...

Let it be no doubt that fixed blade knives are definitely more convenient for both daily and fighting use but, why not contemplating other conveniences like, for one, being able to fold them into half dimensions for better transport. Besides and more important, you could easily hurt yourself with an open navaja inside your pocket or behind your sash.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

… Why were so many navajas of the 20th century inscribed with the ubiquitous `TOLEDO' inscription, when they were actually being made in Albacete and Santa Cruz De Mudela? A common guess is that the tourists wanted to buy a piece of famous Toledo steel. So it may well be the same with the carraca...

Good and pertinent point; notwithstanding that, despite the bulk of navajas production being Albacete and Mudela originated, also Toledo had its share, judging by Forton fig. 232, with a blade engraving ARTILLERIA TOLEDO, a name that would only occurr to that factory, during its “modern” end XIX century period. Besides, quoting Forton’s work, several marks gathered by Santiago Palomares from the XVIII century (and earlier) Toledo sword smiths punzones were also present in precious blades of “cuchillos y navajas”… for what this is worth.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...What i find puzzling about the ratchets is that many navajas, not just Spanish but also Italian had this feature, yet so many had only three teeth, which came into play only at the final phases of opening or at the early stages of closure...

Probably the three teeth were just the start; then came the increasing of its quantity, a sign of traditional 'evolution'. I remember in my youth, people commenting that X person had a six cracks ‘navalha’. So it comes in Forton’s work, as in a copla here shown, where the singer is bragging about his seven muelles (springs/cracks) navaja:

"Mi navaja de Albacete,
que de muelles tiene siete,
Hiere, mata, pincha y raja.
Mi navaja es una alhaja,
si señor."

Originally Posted by kronckew

… the ratcheting noise doesn't stop anything from happening...

The point would not be that of preventing things from happening … but give the other side a chance for a fair fight … i would guess …


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