Weapons from Holstein collection

Kubur · 3rd June 2017, 07:17 PM

Hi Guys,

Do you have weapons from Holstein's collection?
I think I do at least for one...

all the best,
Kubur

Gavin Nugent · 4th June 2017, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Guys,

Do you have weapons from Holstein's collection?
I think I do at least for one...

all the best,
Kubur

Several members here own some items or have owned some Holstein items, a search for Holstein should shed more light on this aspect.
I would however, in the absence of an actual line of decent, not be inclined to claim such an origin even if the item one owns looked the same at face value. I only say this based on one higher end item within my own collection being a mirror of an item in a century old Russian museum publication.

Gavin

Kubur · 4th June 2017, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Several members here own some items or have owned some Holstein items, a search for Holstein should shed more light on this aspect.
I would however, in the absence of an actual line of decent, not be inclined to claim such an origin even if the item one owns looked the same at face value. I only say this based on one higher end item within my own collection being a mirror of an item in a century old Russian museum publication.

Gavin

Well, you are right Gavin.
Even very similar I have no proof to say that and to post the object here.
But for you, if you have good photos from the Russian publication, I'm sure that's possible to spot small details that will tell you if it's the same object or not...

Jens Nordlunde · 4th June 2017, 04:31 PM

Did you know that not all the weapons shown in the Holstein catalogue are from his collection?

Kubur · 5th June 2017, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Did you know that not all the weapons shown in the Holstein catalogue are from his collection?

Well, your question pushes me to another question.
What makes a weapon valuable?
Is it because this weapon belongs to a famous collector?
or is it because this weapon was published?

It's maybe both... I don't know...

Peter Dekker · 5th June 2017, 04:56 PM

Famous provenance is surely "nice to have", and in case of a weapon of a famous person could indeed drive the price up a lot. This is more true for something belonging to a famous historical figure than coming from a certain collection, although the latter can be re-assuring for sure.

In general though, I think value is assessed best through looking at the following factors:

1. The item itself
Quality, condition, craftsmanship, aesthetic appeal.

2. Scarcity
How rare is a piece of comparable quality, condition, etc. How does it compare to similar weapons from this culture.

3. Popularity of the genre
How many collectors are actively collecting this genre.

Some examples:
There are many Japanese swords on the market that score high on all points under 1. Yet, because an estimated 2 million blades survive, they aren't exactly rare. So collectors can afford to be extremely picky, and they are. So many survived that even the popularity of Japanese arms doesn't help drive the prices up much for any but the very best examples.

Another example are good arms from Sri Lanka. Their craftsmanship is among the very best work produced in Asia. It's hard to find an item still in impeccable condition. And even then, there are not a lot of collectors focusing on this field so even very good pieces can still be had relatively cheap.

Some arms tend to be so rare that collectors aren't at all fussy about quality / condition, they are just glad to find a representative example, period. This is true for example about arms and armor from Korea.

Still, value in this field is highly subjective. I recently paid way too much for an arrow with a Manchu word on it. It's just a stick with feathers for most people, and it wasn't even in good condition. But it was the only one I've seen with a Manchu word on it in the decade of studying Manchu archery and collecting related items. So to me, and only me, it was a real treasure!

Jens Nordlunde · 5th June 2017, 05:14 PM

What I mean is, should someone have a weapon shown in the catalogue, it could have come from another collection than Holstein's.
There is even a drawing of a weapon in the catalogue, drawn late 19th century by Mitra Rajendralala, from an Indian temple in Orissa from the 10th or 11th century - see the article How Old is the Katar?

ALEX · 6th June 2017, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Dekker

Famous provenance is surely "nice to have", and in case of a weapon of a famous person could indeed drive the price up a lot. This is more true for something belonging to a famous historical figure than coming from a certain collection, although the latter can be re-assuring for sure.

In general though, I think value is assessed best through looking at the following factors:

1. The item itself
Quality, condition, craftsmanship, aesthetic appeal.

2. Scarcity
How rare is a piece of comparable quality, condition, etc. How does it compare to similar weapons from this culture.

3. Popularity of the genre
How many collectors are actively collecting this genre.

Some examples:
There are many Japanese swords on the market that score high on all points under 1. Yet, because an estimated 2 million blades survive, they aren't exactly rare. So collectors can afford to be extremely picky, and they are. So many survived that even the popularity of Japanese arms doesn't help drive the prices up much for any but the very best examples.

Another example are good arms from Sri Lanka. Their craftsmanship is among the very best work produced in Asia. It's hard to find an item still in impeccable condition. And even then, there are not a lot of collectors focusing on this field so even very good pieces can still be had relatively cheap.

Some arms tend to be so rare that collectors aren't at all fussy about quality / condition, they are just glad to find a representative example, period. This is true for example about arms and armor from Korea.

Still, value in this field is highly subjective. I recently paid way too much for an arrow with a Manchu word on it. It's just a stick with feathers for most people, and it wasn't even in good condition. But it was the only one I've seen with a Manchu word on it in the decade of studying Manchu archery and collecting related items. So to me, and only me, it was a real treasure!

Well said, Peter! Totally agree on all points you covered so well.
A real quality object is usually scarce as there likely be someone who will recognize and appreciate the workmanship and skill put into making it, just as a famous person who had owned it in the past.

Jim McDougall · 7th June 2017, 12:51 AM

To me it is a true conquest to just own a copy of this rare catalog!!! let alone a weapon from within it!!!

As Jens has pointed out, not all weapons illustrated in such a work are necessarily the property of the author.

Personally even when I still collected, I would not have bought a weapon outside my areas of interest just because it was presumably from a renowned collection. As an arms historian, what is most important to me is the weapon itself, and often even if in rugged condition, it conveys many important clues on its form and perhaps even stages of its working life.

I have certainly acquired arms which I paid too much for, but in later years discovered they often were of very rare forms or circumstances. This often gave them an inherent value in different dimension as a viable antiquity with unique character and sometimes compelling provenance.

I recall in California some years ago, when I still lived there, some of the older movie studios cleared out their warehouses of old props, costumes etc. Apparently, there were numbers of old weapons which were true antiques among the prop items used in old films, and some collectors and dealers had a field day!!!

Actually the famed actor Rudolph Valentino was a sword collector, and had gathered some prime examples himself in the early days.

I wonder how many of these are still around and so classified or identified?

Kubur · 7th June 2017, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

To me it is a true conquest to just own a copy of this rare catalog!!! let alone a weapon from within it!!!

Personally even when I still collected, I would not have bought a weapon outside my areas of interest just because it was presumably from a renowned collection.

Apparently, there were numbers of old weapons which were true antiques among the prop items used in old films, and some collectors and dealers had a field day!!!

Hi Jim,

Well, first thank you for your kind comments.
Let's say that Holstein catalogue contains also Persian and Ottoman arms...

Old films like Taras Boulba? Or The Man who would be king? just as examples...

Even recent movies or series too
Recently I saw an Ottoman bullet box in the serie "Vikings"...

Best wishes,
Kubur

Jim McDougall · 7th June 2017, 06:55 PM

Excellent entries Kubur!!!
While often 'Hollywood' and the movie industry is decried for their lack of authenticity and inaccuracy in films, there were many where at least a modicum of authenticity was portrayed.
* In an interesting aside, conversely, a film maker once accompanied Pancho Villa in Mexico and was permitted to film an actual 'charge' into combat. It seems he did not wish to use the footage, as it was " not realistic enough!!!".

Still, movies such as you mentioned, "Taras Bulba", "Man Who Would be King" and so many others were always my favorites.
I recall many years back, I wanted to watch "Gunga Din" for the zillionth time and invited my wife to join. She said, "okay.....but don't wear the pith helmet this time......you're scaring the cats!".

My whole entry into the 'sword collecting syndrome' (many many moons ago) was almost certainly the result of one too many "Zorro" movies!!

On the other hand, in movies, it is fun to watch for those 'zingers', like the Ottoman item in the Viking film. I have had to bite my lip many times to avoid being cashiered by my wife for comments disrupting the viewing.

3rd June 2017, 07:17 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Weapons from Holstein collection Hi Guys, Do you have weapons from Holstein's collection? I think I do at least for one... all the best, Kubur

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4th June 2017, 04:31 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Did you know that not all the weapons shown in the Holstein catalogue are from his collection?

5th June 2017, 04:56 PM	#6
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	Famous provenance is surely "nice to have", and in case of a weapon of a famous person could indeed drive the price up a lot. This is more true for something belonging to a famous historical figure than coming from a certain collection, although the latter can be re-assuring for sure. In general though, I think value is assessed best through looking at the following factors: 1. The item itself Quality, condition, craftsmanship, aesthetic appeal. 2. Scarcity How rare is a piece of comparable quality, condition, etc. How does it compare to similar weapons from this culture. 3. Popularity of the genre How many collectors are actively collecting this genre. Some examples: There are many Japanese swords on the market that score high on all points under 1. Yet, because an estimated 2 million blades survive, they aren't exactly rare. So collectors can afford to be extremely picky, and they are. So many survived that even the popularity of Japanese arms doesn't help drive the prices up much for any but the very best examples. Another example are good arms from Sri Lanka. Their craftsmanship is among the very best work produced in Asia. It's hard to find an item still in impeccable condition. And even then, there are not a lot of collectors focusing on this field so even very good pieces can still be had relatively cheap. Some arms tend to be so rare that collectors aren't at all fussy about quality / condition, they are just glad to find a representative example, period. This is true for example about arms and armor from Korea. Still, value in this field is highly subjective. I recently paid way too much for an arrow with a Manchu word on it. It's just a stick with feathers for most people, and it wasn't even in good condition. But it was the only one I've seen with a Manchu word on it in the decade of studying Manchu archery and collecting related items. So to me, and only me, it was a real treasure!

5th June 2017, 05:14 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	What I mean is, should someone have a weapon shown in the catalogue, it could have come from another collection than Holstein's. There is even a drawing of a weapon in the catalogue, drawn late 19th century by Mitra Rajendralala, from an Indian temple in Orissa from the 10th or 11th century - see the article How Old is the Katar?

7th June 2017, 12:51 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	To me it is a true conquest to just own a copy of this rare catalog!!! let alone a weapon from within it!!! As Jens has pointed out, not all weapons illustrated in such a work are necessarily the property of the author. Personally even when I still collected, I would not have bought a weapon outside my areas of interest just because it was presumably from a renowned collection. As an arms historian, what is most important to me is the weapon itself, and often even if in rugged condition, it conveys many important clues on its form and perhaps even stages of its working life. I have certainly acquired arms which I paid too much for, but in later years discovered they often were of very rare forms or circumstances. This often gave them an inherent value in different dimension as a viable antiquity with unique character and sometimes compelling provenance. I recall in California some years ago, when I still lived there, some of the older movie studios cleared out their warehouses of old props, costumes etc. Apparently, there were numbers of old weapons which were true antiques among the prop items used in old films, and some collectors and dealers had a field day!!! Actually the famed actor Rudolph Valentino was a sword collector, and had gathered some prime examples himself in the early days. I wonder how many of these are still around and so classified or identified?

7th June 2017, 06:55 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Excellent entries Kubur!!! While often 'Hollywood' and the movie industry is decried for their lack of authenticity and inaccuracy in films, there were many where at least a modicum of authenticity was portrayed. * In an interesting aside, conversely, a film maker once accompanied Pancho Villa in Mexico and was permitted to film an actual 'charge' into combat. It seems he did not wish to use the footage, as it was " not realistic enough!!!". Still, movies such as you mentioned, "Taras Bulba", "Man Who Would be King" and so many others were always my favorites. I recall many years back, I wanted to watch "Gunga Din" for the zillionth time and invited my wife to join. She said, "okay.....but don't wear the pith helmet this time......you're scaring the cats!". My whole entry into the 'sword collecting syndrome' (many many moons ago) was almost certainly the result of one too many "Zorro" movies!! On the other hand, in movies, it is fun to watch for those 'zingers', like the Ottoman item in the Viking film. I have had to bite my lip many times to avoid being cashiered by my wife for comments disrupting the viewing.