Planning to make a wrongko

Johan van Zyl · 29th April 2017, 11:52 AM

Rick, I'll first reply to Alan, then come to your suggestion.

Alan, I might have a few reasons. Firstly, I have some arthritis in my thumbs, with the result I cannot grip tools as tightly as I used to. I saw with my first failed attempt to fashion a gambar that it was my use of hand-held tools that gave me the most difficulty. Using the angle grinder to open the space for the blade in a two-piece gambar was a cinch - I found I could manage the process well enough. The fit was near perfect. (It was the extra outer laminations that caused the gambar's downfall.) I can duplicate my success in the new gambar if I could use the same technique. I recall what you wrote about the special tools the keris makers used, but in my crude workshop there's no such apparatus. I have been making do with limited means for a long time now. But perhaps that's not the only reason. Maybe it's more important for me to craft a beautiful wrongko by any means available to me, even by unconventional methods, as long as that item gives me satisfaction upon completion. I find the two-piece gambar OK in my book. I hate to perhaps sadden you by saying I don't mind shying away somewhat from the traditional way of making a gambar, but I've got to do what works for me. Now the correct dimensions: that's of utmost importance to me! I need my project to look right.

Rick, you suggest 1,75 inch stock. Thanks, but could I ask that someone who has a Bugis scabbard kindly provide a pic or two showing the gambar edge-on? That's so I can see how to shape the "ship's" "prow" and "stern". I think the prow is rounded, while the stern seems to be rather flat. (Jean posted a nice pic, and thanks, but that was in conventional view and does not show what I need to see.)

A. G. Maisey · 29th April 2017, 01:57 PM

Thank you Johan for taking the time to explain your reasons for working as you do.

I understand, and sympathise with you for the difficulties you must endure in completing this project.

Jean · 29th April 2017, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

Thanks, but could I ask that someone who has a Bugis scabbard kindly provide a pic or two showing the gambar edge-on? That's so I can see how to shape the "ship's" "prow" and "stern". I think the prow is rounded, while the stern seems to be rather flat. (Jean posted a nice pic, and thanks, but that was in conventional view and does not show what I need to see.)

Hello Johan,
Can this pic of an old and traditional sampir from Sulawesi help you?
Regards

Johan van Zyl · 30th April 2017, 12:49 PM

This is excellent! Thank you, Rick & Jean! What I'm seeing is a gambar that is not so exquisitely shaped than what I had imagined. The single engraved groove (both sides) running up to the top is no more than a straight line: easy to carve. I note the sides running up to the "prow" are quite flat, as are the sides running to the "stern". If this is a acceptable example of a Bugis gambar, I see no reason for me to try and sculpt something more elaborate. Actually, I'm feeling relieved to see these pics - I can go ahead with my tools and limited expertise and expect my gambar to look at least as good.

One more request, if you please: What is the maximum width of the gambar? If I may use ship terms: How wide is the boat in the centre from gunwale to gunwale? This is important for me to know.

Scouring my woodpile for material for a new gambar, I was unfortunate in that I found nothing thick enough I could use. This week I'm going to have to seek out some bits of wood from commercial sources: perhaps Burmese teak, stinkwood or walnut.

For your interest: In 1985 I fashioned buttplates for a .357 Magnum Dakota revolver from Cape buffalo horn. This sixgun is an engraved clone of the Colt Peacemaker of 1873, with a 5 3/4 inch barrel. An article about the making of these buttplates appeared in our gun magazine "Magnum" in that year. Some time afterwards I made buttplates of stinkwood for a Frontier model in .357, and also buttplates of wild olive for a 7 1/2 inch barrelled Uberti single-action. These woods, as well as the buffalo horn, are a pleasure to work with. I will say no more - this was off topic (sorry David) - and please don't think I am blowing my trumpet, I just thought recalling these past projects, in the light of my wrongko project, would be of interest to you all.

Rick · 30th April 2017, 04:06 PM

the width at that point is just shy of 1 inch, Johan. If you need any other pictures let me know.
Glad to be of assistance with your project.

Gustav · 30th April 2017, 07:58 PM

Guys, it's of course nothing of great importance, yet Johan's Keris quite clearly is a Riau or Straits piece (its Gandar/Batang included) and has nothing to with Sulawesi. The sheaths shown in this thread are Sulawesi Bugis.

The Straits Sampir are boxier (wider) and could actually be easier to carve - they don't have the bulge.

David · 30th April 2017, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Guys, it's of course nothing of great importance, yet Johan's Keris quite clearly is a Riau or Straits piece (its Gandar/Batang included) and has nothing to with Sulawesi. The sheaths shown in this thread are Sulawesi Bugis.

The Straits Sampir are boxier (wider) and could actually be easier to carve - they don't have the bulge.

Gustav, if you (or anyone) have some example to show please post them. I'm sure an illustration would be helpful to Johan. I have no such keris in my own collection at this point.

Gustav · 30th April 2017, 10:20 PM

This one comes near to Johan's Gandar/Batang in shape and also wood characteristics are similar. Unfortunately one tip of Sampir has a damage. Will try to make more pictures of it tomorrow.

But I think, all that is not so important, as it in any case will be a "cross cultural" Keris. The Wrongko just should be a good fit for the blade. The only point for the Riau style Wrongko in this case (besides the style of the blade and the survived fittings) is perhaps the minimally easier understanding of its shape and carving work.

Johan van Zyl · 1st May 2017, 10:25 AM

I'm obliged, Rick! In considering the work still to be done, I'm fretting a little bit about joining the gandar to the gambar. Like Alan has said, a butt joint on its own is a bad idea. I have considered the correct method kindly explained by Alan, but I'm wondering if I could get a nice solid attachment by drilling a few holes into the gandar, inserting some brass pins and glueing them into place with their ends protruding, and then marking them against the opposite face of the gambar, drilling holes to accept the pins. When the two pieces are brought together for epoxy glueing, the pins are themselves glued and slid into the holes. (The pins needn't be brass, they can be bambu too.)

I am of the opinion that this joint on any keris scabbard is its weakest point. Making the scabbard out of a single piece of wood would certainly make that spot stronger - I recall reading that this has been done; however, I don't recall ever seeing a scabbard without a join line at that point.

That said, my good wife is of the opinion that I sometimes don't recall all that well...

Johan van Zyl · 1st May 2017, 10:35 AM

Thanks, Gustav! I need all the advice I can get. Much obliged.

kai · 1st May 2017, 01:21 PM

Hello Johan,

Sorry for coming in late!

Quote:

I have considered the correct method kindly explained by Alan, but I'm wondering if I could get a nice solid attachment by drilling a few holes into the gandar, inserting some brass pins and glueing them into place with their ends protruding, and then marking them against the opposite face of the gambar, drilling holes to accept the pins. When the two pieces are brought together for epoxy glueing, the pins are themselves glued and slid into the holes. (The pins needn't be brass, they can be bambu too.)

Since the gandar is made of rather thin (and traditionally lighter) wood, securing by pins would not really be robust enough for use. Usually the gandar has protruding "lips" which are easy and robust to fix a gambar/sampir to. You could try to attach some replacement on the inside of the gandar which will be easier and more stable to fix the crosspiece to.

I'm with Gustav on stylistic considerations.

Quote:

I am of the opinion that this joint on any keris scabbard is its weakest point. Making the scabbard out of a single piece of wood would certainly make that spot stronger - I recall reading that this has been done; however, I don't recall ever seeing a scabbard without a join line at that point.

Try a search of this forum for waranka iras - that should give some hits. These are a hell to craft though...

Regards,
Kai

David · 1st May 2017, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Try a search of this forum for waranka iras - that should give some hits. These are a hell to craft though...

I'm afraid that search will not yield any return Kai. English spellings for Javanese terms vary, but you will get the most hits for that off "warangka iras", a bunch more off "wrongko iras" and a few more still as "wrangka iras".

Jean · 1st May 2017, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

I am of the opinion that this joint on any keris scabbard is its weakest point. Making the scabbard out of a single piece of wood would certainly make that spot stronger - I recall reading that this has been done; however, I don't recall ever seeing a scabbard without a join line at that point.

A scabbard made from a single piece of wood (warangka iras) is commonly used for Javanese or Madurese krisses but rarely if not never for Bugis krisses, one reason being that the wood species used for the gambar and gandar are usually different.... A glued neck joint using integral tenons on the sides of the gandar and inserted into the gambar is very strong.
Regards

Gustav · 1st May 2017, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

A scabbard made from a single piece of wood (warangka iras) is commonly used for Javanese or Madurese krisses but rarely if not never for Bugis krisses, one reason being that the wood species used for the gambar and gandar are usually different.... A glued neck joint using integral tenons on the sides of the gandar and inserted into the gambar is very strong.
Regards

Johan actually is wright. For a Gambar/Sampir on Sumatran or Peninsular Kerisses the piece of wood is mostly taken from roots, can be brittle and has a lot of inner tension. The walls at the joint with Gandar/Batang often are only a couple of millimeters thick, exactly at the weakest place. I have seen many and own some sheaths, where Sampir at this place is broken. If you try to adjust the loose pieces, you mostly find them slightly deformed, because of the inner tension of material.

Sorry, the weather wasn't good today to shoot the pictures. Will try tomorrow.

30th April 2017, 10:20 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	This one comes near to Johan's Gandar/Batang in shape and also wood characteristics are similar. Unfortunately one tip of Sampir has a damage. Will try to make more pictures of it tomorrow. But I think, all that is not so important, as it in any case will be a "cross cultural" Keris. The Wrongko just should be a good fit for the blade. The only point for the Riau style Wrongko in this case (besides the style of the blade and the survived fittings) is perhaps the minimally easier understanding of its shape and carving work. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 30th April 2017 at 10:38 PM.

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29th April 2017, 11:52 AM	#1
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Rick, I'll first reply to Alan, then come to your suggestion. Alan, I might have a few reasons. Firstly, I have some arthritis in my thumbs, with the result I cannot grip tools as tightly as I used to. I saw with my first failed attempt to fashion a gambar that it was my use of hand-held tools that gave me the most difficulty. Using the angle grinder to open the space for the blade in a two-piece gambar was a cinch - I found I could manage the process well enough. The fit was near perfect. (It was the extra outer laminations that caused the gambar's downfall.) I can duplicate my success in the new gambar if I could use the same technique. I recall what you wrote about the special tools the keris makers used, but in my crude workshop there's no such apparatus. I have been making do with limited means for a long time now. But perhaps that's not the only reason. Maybe it's more important for me to craft a beautiful wrongko by any means available to me, even by unconventional methods, as long as that item gives me satisfaction upon completion. I find the two-piece gambar OK in my book. I hate to perhaps sadden you by saying I don't mind shying away somewhat from the traditional way of making a gambar, but I've got to do what works for me. Now the correct dimensions: that's of utmost importance to me! I need my project to look right. Rick, you suggest 1,75 inch stock. Thanks, but could I ask that someone who has a Bugis scabbard kindly provide a pic or two showing the gambar edge-on? That's so I can see how to shape the "ship's" "prow" and "stern". I think the prow is rounded, while the stern seems to be rather flat. (Jean posted a nice pic, and thanks, but that was in conventional view and does not show what I need to see.)

29th April 2017, 01:57 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Thank you Johan for taking the time to explain your reasons for working as you do. I understand, and sympathise with you for the difficulties you must endure in completing this project.

30th April 2017, 12:49 PM	#4
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	This is excellent! Thank you, Rick & Jean! What I'm seeing is a gambar that is not so exquisitely shaped than what I had imagined. The single engraved groove (both sides) running up to the top is no more than a straight line: easy to carve. I note the sides running up to the "prow" are quite flat, as are the sides running to the "stern". If this is a acceptable example of a Bugis gambar, I see no reason for me to try and sculpt something more elaborate. Actually, I'm feeling relieved to see these pics - I can go ahead with my tools and limited expertise and expect my gambar to look at least as good. One more request, if you please: What is the maximum width of the gambar? If I may use ship terms: How wide is the boat in the centre from gunwale to gunwale? This is important for me to know. Scouring my woodpile for material for a new gambar, I was unfortunate in that I found nothing thick enough I could use. This week I'm going to have to seek out some bits of wood from commercial sources: perhaps Burmese teak, stinkwood or walnut. For your interest: In 1985 I fashioned buttplates for a .357 Magnum Dakota revolver from Cape buffalo horn. This sixgun is an engraved clone of the Colt Peacemaker of 1873, with a 5 3/4 inch barrel. An article about the making of these buttplates appeared in our gun magazine "Magnum" in that year. Some time afterwards I made buttplates of stinkwood for a Frontier model in .357, and also buttplates of wild olive for a 7 1/2 inch barrelled Uberti single-action. These woods, as well as the buffalo horn, are a pleasure to work with. I will say no more - this was off topic (sorry David) - and please don't think I am blowing my trumpet, I just thought recalling these past projects, in the light of my wrongko project, would be of interest to you all.

30th April 2017, 04:06 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	the width at that point is just shy of 1 inch, Johan. If you need any other pictures let me know. Glad to be of assistance with your project.

30th April 2017, 07:58 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Guys, it's of course nothing of great importance, yet Johan's Keris quite clearly is a Riau or Straits piece (its Gandar/Batang included) and has nothing to with Sulawesi. The sheaths shown in this thread are Sulawesi Bugis. The Straits Sampir are boxier (wider) and could actually be easier to carve - they don't have the bulge.

1st May 2017, 10:25 AM	#9
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	I'm obliged, Rick! In considering the work still to be done, I'm fretting a little bit about joining the gandar to the gambar. Like Alan has said, a butt joint on its own is a bad idea. I have considered the correct method kindly explained by Alan, but I'm wondering if I could get a nice solid attachment by drilling a few holes into the gandar, inserting some brass pins and glueing them into place with their ends protruding, and then marking them against the opposite face of the gambar, drilling holes to accept the pins. When the two pieces are brought together for epoxy glueing, the pins are themselves glued and slid into the holes. (The pins needn't be brass, they can be bambu too.) I am of the opinion that this joint on any keris scabbard is its weakest point. Making the scabbard out of a single piece of wood would certainly make that spot stronger - I recall reading that this has been done; however, I don't recall ever seeing a scabbard without a join line at that point. That said, my good wife is of the opinion that I sometimes don't recall all that well...

1st May 2017, 10:35 AM	#10
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Thanks, Gustav! I need all the advice I can get. Much obliged.