Army yatagan?

lukasz · 4th March 2006, 04:10 PM

Hello. Does anyone have idea what it is? Could it be an army model? There is no marks or inscriptions on it.
I will be grateful for any informations.

ariel · 5th March 2006, 01:54 AM

Just a guess: Austro-Hungarian Yataghan issued to the Balkan troops.

Valjhun · 5th March 2006, 11:13 AM

Lukasz, wellcome to the forum!

Interesting!

The blade seems verry similar to thatone we discussed in: klik

lukasz · 5th March 2006, 01:38 PM

My first association this weapon was also with some Balkan troops, but the complete shortage of markings seems to be strange. If it was an army model, it should has markings. On the other hand, it's a really solid, strong construction, with no decorations or ornamentations, with a crossguard, and the with the scabbard just like for military cutlass... It seems this construction has been carefully thought over, just like army type models. I’ve been trying to find something similar to compare it to, but haven’t had any luck so far.

not2sharp · 5th March 2006, 03:24 PM

Here is a similar knife (photos from Oriental Arms)

n2s

Valjhun · 29th March 2006, 07:33 PM

There is a verry similar example in Tirris book. According to him it is an Armenian piece from the early 19th century

ariel · 29th March 2006, 09:21 PM

Most of the swordmakers in Georgia/Southern Russia and "Daghestan" area in the second half of the 19th century were ethnic Armenians. Many Turkish swords with "Latin" inscriptions (usually, military patterns of 19th cen) also often carry Armenian names. Armenians were THE artisans of the Ottoman Asia Minor and the Caucasus (I guess, Persia as well.....)
There are very few examples of truly Armenian weaponry, and one needs to be very cautious in assigning a particular sword to the "Armenian" group. The only acceptable evidence is Armenian lettering. Even Armenian name per se may not be enough: Geurk Purunsuzov worked in Akhaltsikhe (Georgia), created truly astonishing Georgian swords, kindjals and shashkas and signed them mostly in Russian. Was he an Armenian master? Ethnically yes, culturally no.
Thus, Tirri's example is Armenian (although I fail to appreciate it's importance...), but this one.. Who knows?

Rivkin · 29th March 2006, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Most of the swordmakers in Georgia/Southern Russia and "Daghestan" area in the second half of the 19th century were ethnic Armenians. Many Turkish swords with "Latin" inscriptions (usually, military patterns of 19th cen) also often carry Armenian names. Armenians were THE artisans of the Ottoman Asia Minor and the Caucasus (I guess, Persia as well.....)
There are very few examples of truly Armenian weaponry, and one needs to be very cautious in assigning a particular sword to the "Armenian" group. The only acceptable evidence is Armenian lettering. Even Armenian name per se may not be enough: Geurk Purunsuzov worked in Akhaltsikhe (Georgia), created truly astonishing Georgian swords, kindjals and shashkas and signed them mostly in Russian. Was he an Armenian master? Ethnically yes, culturally no.
Thus, Tirri's example is Armenian (although I fail to appreciate it's importance...), but this one.. Who knows?

I could not disagree more. In Dagestan proper most of production was traditionally done in a few villages (Amazgi - blades, Kubachi - niello, Kazi-Kumuh, Kazanishe etc.), with absolutely zero presence of armenians. Concerning the trans-Caucasus: Astvatsaturjan on p. 387 cites that among Tiflis weaponsmiths 80 were armenians, 9 local muslims, 8
laks. etc. However ! 3 lines below she noticed "it looks like muslims were dominant among the blade makers". A little bit below she specifically mentions the importance of lezgi as weapon makers.

The confusion is due to the fact that 80 armenians while obviously comprising the majority of artisans in Tiflis, were mostly involved not in sword or blade production per se, but either in making guns, gun parts repairs or in making jewelry with scabbards/belts and similar sword-related items being their secondary source of income. Second confusion comes from the fact that all of the information in Astvatsaturjan's book comes from big city registrations (guilds or hallmark's registry). In 1795 Tiflis was burned to the ground by iranian forces and repopulated by armenians - partially because of their loyalty to iranians and later russians, partially due to the large influx of refugees from Ottoman territories. The city was almost entirely armenian until XXth century. Baku and Erivan were also heavily populated by armenians, as well as Ottoman cities like Kars, Van etc. Therefore the information given on p.404 is somewhat misleading first of all nearly all given information if for large, armenian-populated cities, with an exception of Zugdidi,Kutaisi (georgian populated) and Lagich (jewish). A few villages that are mentioned - Ahalkalaki/Ahalzih for example, were swarmed with armenian refugees who comprised roughly 70% of the local population. With an exception of this, there is no information on smaller production in the villages and on unregistered artisans (mostly muslims, since in many cities only christians formed guilds). While in the text we can find that making swords was extremely popular in Laz/Trabzon/Batum areas, there is not a single Laz/Ajar city in the table.
Second, it does not say what exactly were the weapons produced by these "weaponsmiths" - as I quoted above there was a big difference between gunsmiths and blademakers' communities. If these two factors would have been corrected, we would probably have a much better representation of who was doing what.

Concerning Iran proper most of armenians were concentrated in New-Julfa city, while sword making was spread out throughout the country - Shiraz, later Tehran etc. This alone, together with extreme rarity of armenian-signed weapons (the first one I've seen so far is a Qajar revival sword in this forum) probably speaks to that armenian involvement was far from dominant (or even significant) outside of armenian populated ares of southern Caucasus and a few cities like Lvov.

Another thing is that while you see here and there references in Iranian books towards "mails from Kubachi" or "indian swords" you never see someone swinging an "armenian mace".

ariel · 18th April 2006, 05:43 AM

According to Miller (" Caucasiske Wappen") many, if not most, swordmakers in Georgia were Armenians. The most famous ones, Khachatur, Papov (Popov) and Purunsuzov were all ethnic Armenians and their blades represent the top of swordmaking.
The most famous one, Geurk Elizarov (Elizarashvili), who made swords for the Russian Tsars and whose blades were immortalized by the great 19th century Russian poet Lermontov, was a master with no equals: his swords are unsurpassable in beauty! Assadullah and Masamune have nothing on him. He is an enigma: the name is Jewish. Many Georgian Jews in Israel carry a last name composed of a Biblical name (Eliezer or Elazar, in this case) and ending in -shvili (one of the Caucasian equivalents of -son, -ov, -in, -ski in Russian, Mc- in Scotland and O'- in Ireland). The great orthopedic surgeon Gavril Ilizarov (occasionally spelled Elizarov) was a "Mountain Jew".http://www.ilizarov.org.uk/biog.htm Were they related? It would be an important academic project to research the biography of Geurk Elizarov, because there is very little known about him as a person: like many great masters, he left behind his creations that speak for him and not much more.

Geurk's sons were the teachers of the Zlatoust Russian swordmakers Schaff and Boyarschinov and, thus, responsible for the great tradition of Zlatoust parade Damascus weapons.

TVV · 18th April 2006, 08:48 AM

I was browsing "Russian Edged Weapons" by Kulinski and I found a similarity between the weapon, which started the thread and a Russian M 1810 hanger,m issued to the lower ranks of the naval artillery. The hilt and scabbard mounts are different, but there was quite a variety within Russian patterns at that time, and Kulinski wrote his book based on the available samples in the Military History Museum of Artillery, Engineer Troops, and Signal Troops. But before we jump to any conclusion, here are the stats from the book:
OAL length: 685 mm
Blade length: 535 mm
If the size of the hanger in question is indeed close to these measurements (I feel too lazy to convert them to inches right now), then it is very likely a Russian M 1810 hanger. Quite a find.

Rivkin · 19th April 2006, 06:51 AM

I would better phrase - in Tbilisi, main center of sword production, most of artisans were armenian, sword-related industries being no exception. The population was also mostly armenien, with georgians probably not accounting even for a quarter of total population. Same goes for Dzhavakheti-Mesheti, Baku, etc. At the same time there was a considerable nothern diaspora, particularly from Dagestan, which was quite prominent in sword making (for every Geurk they will praise Bazalay

). At the same time in the western Georgia, majority of sword makers were georgian, even though it was probably not as big a production center as Tbilisi.

Now to Geurk - novadays Geurk became almost an icon of the most extreme georgian nationalism. His name is surrounded with many legends, most of them talk about Tsar jailing his family and requiring Geurk to deliver the secret of true djavari steel. Geurk reveals the secret, however slightly alters the ingridients so that the obtained steel is a simple wootz (i.e. does not cut anvils into pieces). The real recipe is obviously hidden behind the third brick on the left side of some church. At the same time, real Geurk's biography is virtually unknown.

Concerning family names - diversity of languages used by tribes created great variety of endings, all basically meaning "son" - shvili, dze, iya, ani, uri, a etc. Shvili is more characteristic to eastern Georgia, and also is the most popular ending for the jews, who usually have names like _something(usually Israel, Jordan etc.)_a_shvili. At the same time it is quite possible that Geurk's family was simply founded by a jew - for example Eliashvili, while their family was founded by a jew, and they, as Bagratids, are called "jews" in georgian chronicles, nevertheless they are not jewish for jews "proper".

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

According to Miller (" Caucasiske Wappen") many, if not most, swordmakers in Georgia were Armenians. The most famous ones, Khachatur, Papov (Popov) and Purunsuzov were all ethnic Armenians and their blades represent the top of swordmaking.
The most famous one, Geurk Elizarov (Elizarashvili), who made swords for the Russian Tsars and whose blades were immortalized by the great 19th century Russian poet Lermontov, was a master with no equals: his swords are unsurpassable in beauty! Assadullah and Masamune have nothing on him. He is an enigma: the name is Jewish. Many Georgian Jews in Israel carry a last name composed of a Biblical name (Eliezer or Elazar, in this case) and ending in -shvili (one of the Caucasian equivalents of -son, -ov, -in, -ski in Russian, Mc- in Scotland and O'- in Ireland). The great orthopedic surgeon Gavril Ilizarov (occasionally spelled Elizarov) was a "Mountain Jew".http://www.ilizarov.org.uk/biog.htm Were they related? It would be an important academic project to research the biography of Geurk Elizarov, because there is very little known about him as a person: like many great masters, he left behind his creations that speak for him and not much more.

Geurk's sons were the teachers of the Zlatoust Russian swordmakers Schaff and Boyarschinov and, thus, responsible for the great tradition of Zlatoust parade Damascus weapons.

4th March 2006, 04:10 PM	#1
lukasz Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 7	Army yatagan? Hello. Does anyone have idea what it is? Could it be an army model? There is no marks or inscriptions on it. I will be grateful for any informations. Attached Images Last edited by lukasz; 5th March 2006 at 12:12 PM.

5th March 2006, 11:13 AM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Lukasz, wellcome to the forum! Interesting! The blade seems verry similar to thatone we discussed in: klik Attached Images

18th April 2006, 08:48 AM	#10
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	I was browsing "Russian Edged Weapons" by Kulinski and I found a similarity between the weapon, which started the thread and a Russian M 1810 hanger,m issued to the lower ranks of the naval artillery. The hilt and scabbard mounts are different, but there was quite a variety within Russian patterns at that time, and Kulinski wrote his book based on the available samples in the Military History Museum of Artillery, Engineer Troops, and Signal Troops. But before we jump to any conclusion, here are the stats from the book: OAL length: 685 mm Blade length: 535 mm If the size of the hanger in question is indeed close to these measurements (I feel too lazy to convert them to inches right now), then it is very likely a Russian M 1810 hanger. Quite a find. Attached Images

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5th March 2006, 01:54 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just a guess: Austro-Hungarian Yataghan issued to the Balkan troops.

5th March 2006, 01:38 PM	#4
lukasz Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 7	My first association this weapon was also with some Balkan troops, but the complete shortage of markings seems to be strange. If it was an army model, it should has markings. On the other hand, it's a really solid, strong construction, with no decorations or ornamentations, with a crossguard, and the with the scabbard just like for military cutlass... It seems this construction has been carefully thought over, just like army type models. I’ve been trying to find something similar to compare it to, but haven’t had any luck so far.

5th March 2006, 03:24 PM	#5
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	Here is a similar knife (photos from Oriental Arms) n2s

29th March 2006, 07:33 PM	#6
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	There is a verry similar example in Tirris book. According to him it is an Armenian piece from the early 19th century

29th March 2006, 09:21 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Most of the swordmakers in Georgia/Southern Russia and "Daghestan" area in the second half of the 19th century were ethnic Armenians. Many Turkish swords with "Latin" inscriptions (usually, military patterns of 19th cen) also often carry Armenian names. Armenians were THE artisans of the Ottoman Asia Minor and the Caucasus (I guess, Persia as well.....) There are very few examples of truly Armenian weaponry, and one needs to be very cautious in assigning a particular sword to the "Armenian" group. The only acceptable evidence is Armenian lettering. Even Armenian name per se may not be enough: Geurk Purunsuzov worked in Akhaltsikhe (Georgia), created truly astonishing Georgian swords, kindjals and shashkas and signed them mostly in Russian. Was he an Armenian master? Ethnically yes, culturally no. Thus, Tirri's example is Armenian (although I fail to appreciate it's importance...), but this one.. Who knows?

18th April 2006, 05:43 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	According to Miller (" Caucasiske Wappen") many, if not most, swordmakers in Georgia were Armenians. The most famous ones, Khachatur, Papov (Popov) and Purunsuzov were all ethnic Armenians and their blades represent the top of swordmaking. The most famous one, Geurk Elizarov (Elizarashvili), who made swords for the Russian Tsars and whose blades were immortalized by the great 19th century Russian poet Lermontov, was a master with no equals: his swords are unsurpassable in beauty! Assadullah and Masamune have nothing on him. He is an enigma: the name is Jewish. Many Georgian Jews in Israel carry a last name composed of a Biblical name (Eliezer or Elazar, in this case) and ending in -shvili (one of the Caucasian equivalents of -son, -ov, -in, -ski in Russian, Mc- in Scotland and O'- in Ireland). The great orthopedic surgeon Gavril Ilizarov (occasionally spelled Elizarov) was a "Mountain Jew".http://www.ilizarov.org.uk/biog.htm Were they related? It would be an important academic project to research the biography of Geurk Elizarov, because there is very little known about him as a person: like many great masters, he left behind his creations that speak for him and not much more. Geurk's sons were the teachers of the Zlatoust Russian swordmakers Schaff and Boyarschinov and, thus, responsible for the great tradition of Zlatoust parade Damascus weapons.