Pala - antique or repro?!

[mariusgmioc]

I wonder about a Kilij/Pala I aquired not so long ago.

What do you think about it?! Is it Turkish? Is it antique?

The blade has a perfect cutting build, sharp and nimble with several nicks like it has been used. Yet it is in very good condition and the koftgari is almost perfect.

Marius

[mariusgmioc]

more photos

[Kubur]

Hi Marius,
Nothing wrong, all good.
Excellent catch congrat! I want it!!
Best
Kubur

[grendolino]

The grip is wood what makes me a little suspicious. On the other hand I was always intersted where they had so broad horns from.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by grendolino

The grip is wood what makes me a little suspicious. On the other hand I was always intersted where they had so broad horns from.

Nope. The grip is horn, as it is clearly visible under 5x magnification.

Possibly rhino but it looks somehow different fom another one I have.

[ariel]

I do not think you have anything to worry about: 100% genuine.

[asomotif]

Call me paranoid, but I suspect this to be brand new made in China.

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by grendolino

The grip is wood what makes me a little suspicious. On the other hand I was always intersted where they had so broad horns from.

On picture nr. 3 it indeed looks like there is a "wood pattern".
But horn also has these lengthwise structures.

I think the horn is heated and bent in order to make a fitting piece for this type of hilt. Maybe the experts can comment on that...

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Call me paranoid, but I suspect this to be brand new made in China.

Yesss! That's what I suspected all along! Thank you for confirming my suspicions! Hurray, I'm not paranoid!

I started looking for the "Made in China" marking.

[ariel]

Yeah... China...:-)))

He simply wants you to sell it to him for 2 peanuts.
I can give you 4!!!
Any higher bidder?:-)))

[Oliver Pinchot]

It's perfectly authentic, second half of the 19th century. It's a later than average example and condition is quite good, showing very little wear. That said, the wiggle engraving on the mounts is probably later. It's likely they were plain silver originally.

In fact, Ottoman smiths did boil horn to make it flexible. Wooden grips aren't especially common but were certainly known.

Six peanuts, Ariel.

[mariusgmioc]

Thank you guys for comments!

But now that it is well established that it is made in China, I won't sell it for anything but Yuan.

Well... maybe peanuts too... but butter!

[Kubur]

[QUOTE=That said, the wiggle engraving on the mounts is probably later. It's likely they were plain silver originally.
[/QUOTE]

I don't think Oliver, the wiggle engravings are the same on scabbard and guard. This sword is perfectly coherent to me.

[David R]

If it is a repro' it's a very good one, more of a "new made in the tradition" rather than a fake. Also more likely Syria or India than China.
Myself, without having it in hand I would guess late 19th early 20th century "Ottoman Revival", or a dress sword, a nice piece and well worth having.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by David R

If it is a repro' it's a very good one, more of a "new made in the tradition" rather than a fake. Also more likely Syria or India than China.
Myself, without having it in hand I would guess late 19th early 20th century "Ottoman Revival", or a dress sword, a nice piece and well worth having.

Hi David and thank you for you comment!

The "made in China" issue was more like joke, and I concur with Oliver's opinion and yours, that it is a late 19th century Ottoman and I believe even Turkish sword.

Regards,

Marius

[motan]

Hi, I am certainly not an expert on any sword, but the style of decoration on the guard and sheath look Syrian to me. Kilij-type swords were made in Damascus well into the 20th century and were popular mainly with Bedu tribesmen. So this could be one of these. I don't know about the blade. It could be re-hafted and re-decorated older blade. The use of cow-horn in the grip is also consistent with late Syrian origin.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by motan

Hi, I am certainly not an expert on any sword, but the style of decoration on the guard and sheath look Syrian to me. Kilij-type swords were made in Damascus well into the 20th century and were popular mainly with Bedu tribesmen. So this could be one of these. I don't know about the blade. It could be re-hafted and re-decorated older blade. The use of cow-horn in the grip is also consistent with late Syrian origin.

Interesting point!

However, I do not think the scales are cow horm but rhinoceros. However, I am not certain , but under magnification, the horn appears to be made of many hairs joined together which is exactly how rhinoceros horn looks like.

[motan]

Just to illustrate my point. The first one is from 1900-1920. Look at the sword below. The second one is from the well-known Aref el Aref series from the 1930'. There are several types visible. The Bedu used every type availble, the most popular were kilij type hilt and calssical Syrian type with jus over 90 degrees bent pommel tip. Shashka type, Arabian saif/nimsha type and locally made "sinai" type were also common. Blades were whatever was available for re-hafting. It is no real evidence, but the kilij type was popular and I guess Damascus sword smiths kept making them. All said, this is not a typical Bedouin sword because the blade and blade decoration are real kilij.

[Kubur]

The pala presented by Marius is Turkish, or at least from the Balkans.
Your photos are very nice btw.

[mariusgmioc]

@ Motan

Very interesting indeed!

Thank you very much!

However, I believe the sheath with the silver thread joining of the leather on the front face of the scabbard is rather typical Turkish.

I am surprised to notice they wore their swords edge up.

@ Kubur,

I agree. I would have said Turkish but in the Balkans the styles were so much intertwined that it would be close to impossible to certainly allocate a precise geographical location.
Besides, there were many Turkish smiths who travelled with the Turkish army and then setled in the Balkans.

[motan]

Could it be that the blade is original Ottoman, but the kofgari is recently "re-done"? This is very common practice nowdays, epecially in Rhajastan. Another option is that it has been bought new or almost new by a collector and was kept well ever since, like many other pieces in very good condition.
Kubur, nice early photos (1900?). Both are from Syria.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by motan

Could it be that the blade is original Ottoman, but the kofgari is recently "re-done"?

Of course it could. But in my opinion not very likely.

But it also could be that it has been well cared in a collection. The overall condition of the sword is very good and it definitely isn't unfathomable that a 19th century sword retained all its koftgari.

I also have a couple of 19th century Yataghans retainig almost 100% of their extensive orignal koftgari.

[YataganMan]

Yes this Pala is all genuine late 19 cent production ,Hilt plates are Water Buffalo horn well patinated by sweat.I have seen many examples of this kind of hilts
over the years.The koftgari work represents typical Turkish (Anatolian style) and is in very good condition.A good buy congs.

[mariusgmioc]

Thanks!

Can you read the cartouche?

Regards,

Marius