A beautiful Burmese dha dated 1798

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Ian,

As I rely on others translating the Burmese script for me, I could not without proper review of the text and the blade in the hand, assess the age of the blade...but I must say, the silver application to the blade is better than most for 1930s, that much is certain to my eye.

The silver work of the scabbard dress is Burmese, the Laos notation I previously made, as you know, was only for the hilt binding of Marks sword. An interesting point made by several researchers is that the Shan smiths involved with this craft, of which I am sure many were in these guilds, their silver work was flatter and more floral which might account for some swords that I have seen with these stunning high relief repousse silver scabbards and low relief hilts?
A point of note too, of all these sword types that I have seen and handled, they ALL have a large lotus bud pommel, of varying designs and that that were not of the lotus bud shape specifically, were decorated in lotus bud and flower repousse designs.

With regards to the quality of silver work in this sword that you present, especially seen on the pommel, it shows a general great decline in the art by 1930...I wish I could see more detail of the panels...they look real nice.
An interesting anomaly that I have noticed with several of these sword now, is that well in to the 30's and beyond by many decades, the scabbard repousse panels have remained far superior to the work on the hilts and pommels...an aspect I can't explain with any accuracy. A surplus of old silver fittings? A conglomeration of guilds? Dies for scabbard panels remained undamaged? A change of direction in the craft? But again, there are other examples that date from 1948-75 which bear the state seal of Burma which are exquisite quality throughout? Perhaps it all come down to budget for each sword as these sword types are generally considered to be state and diplomatic gifts and each person who was to receive the gift may have a set amount of funds aside by the state for the swords making?

Gavin

[Ian]

Hi Gavin:

I want to press you a little further on the repoussed silver work on the scabbards of these swords. I understand that these scabbards were likely produced in Burma, either by Burmese craftsmen or imported metal smiths.

I think you would agree that it is unusual to find this segmented style of silver scabbard on Burmese dha, with the exception of these "story dha" that seem to have arisen around the mid-19th C. as commemorative items and perhaps for foreign consumption.

The arrangement of the scabbard elements into contiguous cells or segments is very similar to what has been found on Lao hilts and scabbards that pre-date this period and that appear to have evolved in the mid- to late-18th C. (from an earlier Lan Xang style). Some of the Lao silver work of that period was particularly fine, and they seem to have brought the repoussed metal technique to a fine art in the second half of the 18th C. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that Burmese repoussed metalware was found to a great degree or of a high quality in the late 18th C.--those techniques and skills being learned and adopted from the Lao around that time.

I would like to have your thoughts on this as I have several repoussed silver scabbards on Lao and Burmese swords that appear quite similar.

Regards,

Ian.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Gavin:

I want to press you a little further on the repoussed silver work on the scabbards of these swords. I understand that these scabbards were likely produced in Burma, either by Burmese craftsmen or imported metal smiths.

I think you would agree that it is unusual to find this segmented style of silver scabbard on Burmese dha, with the exception of these "story dha" that seem to have arisen around the mid-19th C. as commemorative items and perhaps for foreign consumption.

The arrangement of the scabbard elements into contiguous cells or segments is very similar to what has been found on Lao hilts and scabbards that pre-date this period and that appear to have evolved in the mid- to late-18th C. (from an earlier Lan Xang style). Some of the Lao silver work of that period was particularly fine, and they seem to have brought the repoussed metal technique to a fine art in the second half of the 18th C. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that Burmese repoussed metalware was found to a great degree or of a high quality in the late 18th C.--those techniques and skills being learned and adopted from the Lao around that time.

I would like to have your thoughts on this as I have several repoussed silver scabbards on Lao and Burmese swords that appear quite similar.

Regards,

Ian.

Hi Ian,

Segmented scabbards are very common on many types of Burmese Dah in plain and repousse styling and far less common on Laos and Thai swords which for 90+% are plain silver sheet with embellished ends...the other 10% or less that are of segmented scabbards are rarely seen and usually not repousse.

Hilts are a different story, for centuries, as you note, this aspect has been present on Thai and Laos swords...why did it not follow through to the scabbard in these countries in these times? On Royal swords it did, but not to my knowledge segmented types of scabbards but certainly repousse.
All others were suspended by baldrics could be one answer as why they weren't repousse scabbard as Royal swords had sword bearers. These Burmese swords are hung by suspension loops in a very European manner, not baldric or sash worn and can display such work.

If I understand correctly the swords you refer to, are mostly royal swords and none to my knowledge are interlocked in the manner of these "story" dah except the 1970s zodiac examples which are reputed to be based on swords held by the royal house...swords I've never seen.

Who genetically worked in these Burmese guilds I cannot say, but as a Burmese production under the British Raj and later Independent Burmese government, we are talking 150+ years here of craft here I see the people as Burmese and English. During the period of the manufacture of these prestigious swords and other fine export silver, there were clear lines/borders defined between the colonial powers of Britain and France...

Gavin

[Ian]

Originally posted by Gavin Nugent:

Hi Ian,

Segmented scabbards are very common on many types of Burmese Dah in plain and repousse styling and far less common on Laos and Thai swords which for 90+% are plain silver sheet with embellished ends...the other 10% or less that are of segmented scabbards are rarely seen and usually not repousse.

Hilts are a different story, for centuries, as you note, this aspect has been present on Thai and Laos swords...why did it not follow through to the scabbard in these countries in these times? On Royal swords it did, but not to my knowledge segmented types of scabbards but certainly repousse.
All others were suspended by baldrics could be one answer as why they weren't repousse scabbard as Royal swords had sword bearers. These Burmese swords are hung by suspension loops in a very European manner, not baldric or sash worn and can display such work.

If I understand correctly the swords you refer to, are mostly royal swords and none to my knowledge are interlocked in the manner of these "story" dah except the 1970s zodiac examples which are reputed to be based on swords held by the royal house...swords I've never seen.

Who genetically worked in these Burmese guilds I cannot say, but as a Burmese production under the British Raj and later Independent Burmese government, we are talking 150+ years here of craft here I see the people as Burmese and English. During the period of the manufacture of these prestigious swords and other fine export silver, there were clear lines/borders defined between the colonial powers of Britain and France...

Gavin

Hi Gavin:

Hmmm. Perhaps we are talking about slightly different things.

In any case, I am posting here two swords that I think show the segmented Lao scabbards. The first also has a segmented hilt.

The first one I posted here about eight months ago when I picked it up online. Having cleaned the hilt and scabbard, the silver work has come up rather well to show some nice repousse work and an unadorned segment on the scabbard where the rope baldric would have been attached. In fact, there are still very faint impressions of the rope that once wound around it. Judging from the condition of the silver work, its style, and quality (good but not great) I would think it is from the 19th C. Incidentally, the blade that came with these fittings was a late 20th C. replacement and a piece of junk!

The second is a late 20th C. sword made by a Lao craftsman whose name I knew once but now cannot find in my records. There are at least three or four of these swords that he has made, maybe more. I purchased this one in the 1990s. The silver covered scabbard has a series of segments in which a different animal is depicted. The ivory hilt on this one is not segmented, but I like the "naked" ivory tusk and silver work. (Incidentally, Scott Rodell has a fine Cochin saber with a similar hilt that appears on his web site. I had the pleasure of handling this sword a few years ago at Timonium and it was beautifully balanced.)

I have another two or three examples similar to the first one, so I don't think that these segmented scabbards are necessarily "rare" on Lao swords, however I do believe they are a distinct style that the Lao developed.

When it comes to Burmese scabbards, I think we are probably talking about different things. To get a handle on your impressions, I went to your web site and looked through all your old pics. I found four Burmese dha with what I would call segmented scabbard decorations--these were all high end, presentation type swords. I excluded Shan and Yunnan decorated dha that might give the appearance of segmented patterns along the scabbard, but which have cut out areas where the wood shows through--clearly a different style from the Lao segmented scabbards.

The numbers of Thai and Lao daab on your site were too numerous to count, but a quick inspection showed few, if any, with the segmented patterns that I show below. A substantial fraction had no scabbard.

It seems that the segmented pattern of which I am talking is not common, on either Burmese or Thai/Lao swords. I know there are others here who collect dha/daab and perhaps they could share some of their examples.

Ian.

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Ian,

The 1970's craftsman name that eludes you is Thit Thong Ratanakorn.
I personally feel that the sword you suspect is 19th century silver dress is more likely of the period of the Thit Thong Ratanakorn sword.

Of the Thit Thong Ratanakorn swords, I must have seen 30+ of the type now...I've even seen them in sets of three with sizes relating to the Katana, Waka and Tanto...all the same style with ivory hilts.

The segmented scabbard types are certainly uncommon as a whole, but also rather common when they all start getting documented. You did well to pick through my unorganised sold stock link...you'll see another 3 fine examples in my latest swap forum post, a fellow collector that I've been put in touch with also has two similar, here is another rare short example from these pages; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...06&postcount=1
There is the Vittorio Emanuele the 2nd gem encrusted Burmese dah with segmented scabbard, non repousse but gem encrusted at the joins, a sword akin to those pictured in the hands of the body guards of Shan Princes in this article here; http://www.vam.ac.uk/blog/research-d...na-and-the-tai
Other Burmese types have passed through my hands and numerous others seen online over the years..
Comparatively, I know of the Thit Thong Ratanakorn which are often flogged off as 19th century are auctions and dealers...so I guess, when you include this Laos revival of the 70's, it is more a 50/50 spread and not all that uncommon on either side of the border.
There is a non repousse silver three segment scabbard in a well know Thai Silverware book.

I personally feel that these Laos swords were inspired by the Burmese repousse dah of the Raj and later independent Burma.

Gavin

[Ian]

Hi Gavin:

Well, I guess we have two different theories about this style.

I am confident that the first example in my last post here is not from the 1970s. Its condition and the amount of oxidation on the silver compare to provenanced examples of Shan knives from the 19th C.--those very familiar knives with silver hilts and scabbards. Just as you must have, I've handled scores of these over the years and older examples show similar wear and oxidation to the Lao example I show above.

But back to our two theories. If I'm stating you correctly, you believe that the Burmese developed the distinctive repoussed, segmented style of scabbard as a highly decorative and prestigious form, almost entirely for distinguished individuals and presentation pieces. You would date this development to the appearance of the British in Burma, and specifically around the mid-19th C. Therefore, the appearance of these features on Lao/northern Thai swords would have been in imitation of the Burmese style.

My competing idea is that this style evolved from an earlier Lan Chang (i.e. Lao) style following the collapse of the Lan Chang era in the early 18th C. This would place it primarily as a Lao style, with perhaps later diffusion to Burma. [There are, of course, other explanations such as independent parallel development of the two, which seems unlikely, or that both developed from a (presently unknown) prior style.]

In support of your view, you point to the large number of Thai/Lao swords you have seen and handled (and there are many on your site), and how rare it is to see segmented scabbards on these. That's a powerful argument, but not exactly a systematic attempt to answer the question of whether these segmented forms developed from an earlier Lan Chang style. Indeed, to disprove your Burmese origin theory it would only be necessary to find one or two Lao/Thai examples that predate the mid-19th C.

I have provided pictures of what I think is a 19th C. Lao example. You question that dating. Fair enough.

As with so many competing theories in our field, we need to have clearly provenanced pieces. These are likely to be found in museums of far away places which I seldom get to these days. Or they might be located in some of the former colonial countries. Or they may reside in the hands of some of our readers who will post them here.

Let's see if anything shows up.

Ian.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ian

I am confident that the first example in my last post here is not from the 1970s. Its condition and the amount of oxidation on the silver compare to provenanced examples of Shan knives from the 19th C.--those very familiar knives with silver hilts and scabbards. Just as you must have, I've handled scores of these over the years and older examples show similar wear and oxidation to the Lao example I show above.

Hi Ian,

A point worth noting about the oxidisation from my experience is that degrees of colour and patina is based on impurities in the silvers used.
I've found it in both 18th and 20th century silver, some with native hallmarks.
I am sure it is not limited to, but the higher quality silvers have patinated to blues and purples, whilst others from both ends of the age window have been blackish, brown copperish and even hints of gold in places where some form of flux has been used.
With regards to the hallmarks, I'd guess it is like any other known form of noting that tax has been paid on the silver sheets used. Again, I am sure it is not limited to, but those of an appearance you wouldn't consider silver until polished, I'd expect them at face value to be from more provincial areas where regulations and taxes were less exacting.

Originally Posted by Ian

But back to our two theories. If I'm stating you correctly, you believe that the Burmese developed the distinctive repoussed, segmented style of scabbard as a highly decorative and prestigious form, almost entirely for distinguished individuals and presentation pieces. You would date this development to the appearance of the British in Burma, and specifically around the mid-19th C. Therefore, the appearance of these features on Lao/northern Thai swords would have been in imitation of the Burmese style.

Not quite; I do not believe The Lao/Thai swords are an imitation of at all. If anything, and only as a matter of thought, not fact, that the Burmese "Story" Dah developed in its own right from inspiration of the repousse silver hilts swords of Thai/Lao swords. I am sceptical about the sectional repousse scabbards of Laos being any older that the 1950-70s. Has anyone an image of these reputed royal Laos swords from which Thit Thong Ratanakorn copied his swords from?

Originally Posted by Ian

My competing idea is that this style evolved from an earlier Lan Chang (i.e. Lao) style following the collapse of the Lan Chang era in the early 18th C. This would place it primarily as a Lao style, with perhaps later diffusion to Burma. [There are, of course, other explanations such as independent parallel development of the two, which seems unlikely, or that both developed from a (presently unknown) prior style.]

In support of your view, you point to the large number of Thai/Lao swords you have seen and handled (and there are many on your site), and how rare it is to see segmented scabbards on these. That's a powerful argument, but not exactly a systematic attempt to answer the question of whether these segmented forms developed from an earlier Lan Chang style. Indeed, to disprove your Burmese origin theory it would only be necessary to find one or two Lao/Thai examples that predate the mid-19th C.

I have provided pictures of what I think is a 19th C. Lao example. You question that dating. Fair enough.

As with so many competing theories in our field, we need to have clearly provenanced pieces. These are likely to be found in museums of far away places which I seldom get to these days. Or they might be located in some of the former colonial countries. Or they may reside in the hands of some of our readers who will post them here.

Let's see if anything shows up.

Ian.

Gavin