european sword for ID

HUSAR · 19th February 2017, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov

Hello,
It looks like a great specimen! I agree that it is German, and might date to around 1530ish. The wolf-mark originates from Passau, but was already being copied elsewhere I think - in Solingen for example. There are two similar swords in Zurich that have a fairly similar "forked-cross" mark (but no wolf-mark).

best,
Mark

Mark Thank You Very Very Much for reply and information, wolf is on one side while "forked-cross" on both. I will try to place some more pics tomorrow. The sword is in rusty condition and was at least 24 years on my friends wall (this is when I first time saw it) and inlays seems to be in gold while still a bit shiny.

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2017, 05:53 AM

Husar, great to have you back!!! It does not seem you were gone that long as I remember your avatar and name clearly.
Looks like a fantastic example, and even more so that it has been static for so long in a collection you know.

The latten markings are outstanding, and excellent input there Mark, with the chart and excerpts of examples!

This of the period being suggested by Mark in my opinion, and the running wolf is of course a Solingen issue of the Passau established marking. The chart from Eduard Wagner (1967) showing the running wolf variations is of course not a chronological development study, but exemplars Wagner had noted from various weapons he had examined and their approximate period.
The forked cross also appears a Solingen issue of similar markings used in Milan (usually with letter beneath) and paired with the wolf as quality or other imbuement.

Reventlov · 20th February 2017, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HUSAR

Mark Thank You Very Very Much for reply and information, wolf is on one side while "forked-cross" on both. I will try to place some more pics tomorrow.

You're very welcome! It would be great to see the full length of the sword, and the mark on the other side. Also, is it as large as the swords in Zurich?

HUSAR · 25th February 2017, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov

You're very welcome! It would be great to see the full length of the sword, and the mark on the other side. Also, is it as large as the swords in Zurich?

Finally I have found few minutes to take pic of whole sword, sorry not the best one I will try to make some in daylight tomorrow

Reventlov · 25th February 2017, 10:44 PM

Thanks for the photo!

I've found another example of a "forked-cross" type mark for comparison, with a more curved shape that may be a little closer to your mark. The wolf appears again and is quite similar, along with an additional cross potent. This sword is in the Slavicin museum in the Czech Republic.

Terry K · 28th February 2017, 01:28 AM

Great looking piece! Never see any of those over here.

cornelistromp · 28th February 2017, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov

Thanks for the photo!

I've found another example of a "forked-cross" type mark for comparison, with a more curved shape that may be a little closer to your mark. The wolf appears again and is quite similar, along with an additional cross potent. This sword is in the Slavicin museum in the Czech Republic.

Hi mark,

can you tell where you get this Picture from, very nice T-pommel sword.
Iam not sure if the "forked cross" with the round base displays a splitted cross or a monstrance.

sword of post 1, it looks as though the blade is 50-100 years older as the hilt.

best,
jasper

Reventlov · 1st March 2017, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

can you tell where you get this Picture from, very nice T-pommel sword.
Iam not sure if the "forked cross" with the round base displays a splitted cross or a monstrance.

Hi Jasper, you are right - it is not really the same mark as the split cross. Have you seen a monstrance represented this way elsewhere?

That illustration comes from an article by Petr Zakovsky, "Marked High- and Late-Medieval Longswords from the Collections of the Municipal Museum, Broumov", it should be available online. The text is in Czech, but there are other photos of swords with interesting markings.

I've found an article in volume V of Zeitschrift für Historische Waffenkunde with many examples and variants of the mark, ascribed to members of the Stantler family. In the same series of articles I also came across what looks to be the original source for Wagner's table of wolf marks - but with more details as to location.

Finally, another example was sold by Hermann Historica, who erroneously describe the mark as an "imperial orb" while repeating the attribution to the Stantlers.

http://www.hermann-historica.de/en/s...6&currentpos=2

cheers!
Mark

Jim McDougall · 2nd March 2017, 07:32 PM

I would like to thank Mark for adding this information and scans from these resources illustrating these markings, and for including the reference sources.
This really helps as these archived threads hold an important corpus of data which is very much daily used by those carrying out varying research on these and related topics. I learn every day from these kinds of entries so generously shared here.

It is interesting to see the suggestion of a monstrance, and how many of the markings used on blades carry ecclesiastical significance. With this blade and the curious forked cross, the running wolf and the encircled cross potent in such a grouping seem to be combined in almost a talismanic imbuement situation.

It has always seemed a bit of a conundrum with the running wolf (ostensibly from Passau) marking, which is not actually a makers mark but appears to have been some sort of guild mark which became a symbol implying quality and strength. It is very interesting to find the source which Wagner used (1967) and the variations of these highly stylized creatures. Actually many of them look like prehistoric 'cave art' and many range into Picasso-like impressions which become almost indiscernible.

It seems that much like the concurrent discussion on Spanish makers punzones, many of the markings and spurious examples of these markings used in Germany are quite conflicting. It has almost become a case of which purloined names and markings were favored by certain German smiths.
The 'Imperial orb' is another well known mark with ecclesiastical connotations which is often misconstrued in its use. Again, not a makers mark, but apparently favored by certain makers and perhaps regionally I Germany, and added along with inscription or name in blade marking.

25th February 2017, 10:44 PM	#5
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	Thanks for the photo! I've found another example of a "forked-cross" type mark for comparison, with a more curved shape that may be a little closer to your mark. The wolf appears again and is quite similar, along with an additional cross potent. This sword is in the Slavicin museum in the Czech Republic. Attached Images

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20th February 2017, 05:53 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Husar, great to have you back!!! It does not seem you were gone that long as I remember your avatar and name clearly. Looks like a fantastic example, and even more so that it has been static for so long in a collection you know. The latten markings are outstanding, and excellent input there Mark, with the chart and excerpts of examples! This of the period being suggested by Mark in my opinion, and the running wolf is of course a Solingen issue of the Passau established marking. The chart from Eduard Wagner (1967) showing the running wolf variations is of course not a chronological development study, but exemplars Wagner had noted from various weapons he had examined and their approximate period. The forked cross also appears a Solingen issue of similar markings used in Milan (usually with letter beneath) and paired with the wolf as quality or other imbuement.

28th February 2017, 01:28 AM	#6
Terry K Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 86	Great looking piece! Never see any of those over here.

2nd March 2017, 07:32 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	I would like to thank Mark for adding this information and scans from these resources illustrating these markings, and for including the reference sources. This really helps as these archived threads hold an important corpus of data which is very much daily used by those carrying out varying research on these and related topics. I learn every day from these kinds of entries so generously shared here. It is interesting to see the suggestion of a monstrance, and how many of the markings used on blades carry ecclesiastical significance. With this blade and the curious forked cross, the running wolf and the encircled cross potent in such a grouping seem to be combined in almost a talismanic imbuement situation. It has always seemed a bit of a conundrum with the running wolf (ostensibly from Passau) marking, which is not actually a makers mark but appears to have been some sort of guild mark which became a symbol implying quality and strength. It is very interesting to find the source which Wagner used (1967) and the variations of these highly stylized creatures. Actually many of them look like prehistoric 'cave art' and many range into Picasso-like impressions which become almost indiscernible. It seems that much like the concurrent discussion on Spanish makers punzones, many of the markings and spurious examples of these markings used in Germany are quite conflicting. It has almost become a case of which purloined names and markings were favored by certain German smiths. The 'Imperial orb' is another well known mark with ecclesiastical connotations which is often misconstrued in its use. Again, not a makers mark, but apparently favored by certain makers and perhaps regionally I Germany, and added along with inscription or name in blade marking.