Yataghan for translation and comment

mariusgmioc · 26th June 2016, 11:56 AM

Hello,

Recently purchased this Yataghan and I would appreciate any comments pertaining it.

Is it Greek, Bosnian or Turkish? Any date or maker's name in the cartouches?

Can anybody help me please with the translation of the cartouches?

Best regards,

Marius

Battara · 26th June 2016, 10:12 PM

The hilt form looks more Turkish to me than Balkan.

Very nice!

napoleon · 27th June 2016, 02:38 PM

I HAVE NO IDEA BUT ITS A SUPERB EXAMPLE,I FEEL A LITTLE BIT JEALOUS.

benny.lee · 27th June 2016, 04:49 PM

beautiful

mariusgmioc · 27th June 2016, 04:57 PM

Got lucky this time. I was the loosing bidder but the winner didn't make the payment so the auction house sold it to me.

mariusgmioc · 30th June 2016, 10:18 AM

Still nobody to help me with the translation?

estcrh · 30th June 2016, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Still nobody to help me with the translation?

Once again a very nice yatagan with intact inscription. I looked all over trying to find a similar one but no luck so far, the monster head on the sabbard tip says Balkans to me but were exactly is the question.

mariusgmioc · 2nd July 2016, 06:15 PM

I think that without a clear written location or smith's signature, it is close to impossible to accurately locate the place of manufacture since many manufacturing centers shared the same know-how and tradition and smiths and skills traveled frequently from center to center within the Ottoman Empire.

mariusgmioc · 4th July 2016, 02:04 PM

Still no translation?

mariusgmioc · 9th July 2016, 09:26 AM

Hello Zifir,

Can you please help me with this one as well?

Best regards,

Marius Mioc

Miguel · 12th July 2016, 07:34 PM

Hi Marius,

Sorry for late reply but have had severe computer problems and system will not accept replies from iPad.

Cant help with translation but would like to congratulate you on owning such a beautiful piece, wonderful. I think it may be Turkish. I read somewhere that the warriors threw away their yagtahan scabbards when they went into battle, collecting them later if they were victorious, I don't think that they would throw this scabbard away which leads me to think that it is a status or dress item but whatever it is a really beautiful piece.
Regards
Miguel

mariusgmioc · 13th July 2016, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Marius,

Sorry for late reply but have had severe computer problems and system will not accept replies from iPad.

Cant help with translation but would like to congratulate you on owning such a beautiful piece, wonderful. I think it may be Turkish. I read somewhere that the warriors threw away their yagtahan scabbards when they went into battle, collecting them later if they were victorious, I don't think that they would throw this scabbard away which leads me to think that it is a status or dress item but whatever it is a really beautiful piece.
Regards
Miguel

Thank you for your appreciation... but I will redirect it towards the master swordsmith who made such a masterpiece!

Miguel · 14th July 2016, 07:15 PM

Well said Marius. Iwas wondering if you have had a chance to research the Yataghan in your new book and if so have you found if it is Balkan or not?
Regards
Miguel

mariusgmioc · 15th July 2016, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Well said Marius. Iwas wondering if you have had a chance to research the Yataghan in your new book and if so have you found if it is Balkan or not?
Regards
Miguel

Hello Miguel,

Based on comparisons with some pieces in Elgood's book, it may be from Crete. However, I am not sure about that because of other distinctive characteristics. Moreover, I am not sure that Elgood's geographical attribution can be considered for reference as it appears to be based more on anectodal evidence.

To me is quite clear that styles and crafts traveled throughout the Ottoman empire and it may be impossible to accurately locate a point of origin.

eftihis · 15th July 2016, 10:57 AM

Well, certainly it is not from Crete, and i do not think is from any other Greek place either.

mariusgmioc · 15th July 2016, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

Well, certainly it is not from Crete, and i do not think is from any other Greek place either.

Quite possible! That was my first impression too, but then after looking into Elgood's book, I thought that maybe Crete.

Thank you very much for your suggestion!

Miguel · 15th July 2016, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Miguel,

Based on comparisons with some pieces in Elgood's book, it may be from Crete. However, I am not sure about that because of other distinctive characteristics. Moreover, I am not sure that Elgood's geographical attribution can be considered for reference as it appears to be based more on anectodal evidence.

To me is quite clear that styles and crafts traveled throughout the Ottoman empire and it may be impossible to accurately locate a point of origin.

Hello Marius,

I think you may be right which is frustrating at times but is all part of the enjoyment of the researching process

I have just ordered the book as I have always been satisfied with the quality of Elgood`s research and hope I am not disappointed as I have noted some criticisms with this book which is something I have not seen about his previous works. At any rate they have not put me off and I look forward to receiving it. I still think that your Yataghan may be Turkish

Regards
Miguel

mariusgmioc · 16th July 2016, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Marius,

I still think that your Yataghan may be Turkish

Regards
Miguel

Thank you very much for your oppinion! That was my first thought too.

Well, have a look at Elgood's book and let me know what you think afterwards!

Have a nice weekend!

Miguel · 18th July 2016, 07:57 PM

Will gladly offer my opinion when I have received and had a chance to study its content, Hope to receive later this week.
Till then
Miguel

Miguel · 7th August 2016, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Thank you very much for your oppinion! That was my first thought too.

Well, have a look at Elgood's book and let me know what you think afterwards!

Have a nice weekend!

Hi Marius, sorry for the delayed reply my book got lost but now I have it and looked at the Cretan Yataghans I see why you thought it may be from there as there are similarities, I really don't know what to think. It still feels Turkish to me but I think your earlier comment about possibly never being able to establish the true origin may prove to be correct. It is a pity that no one has been able to offer a translation it is such a splendid piece.
Regards
Miguel

Kubur · 7th August 2016, 09:38 PM

Hi,
It's not a Greek yataghan, I think it's a Turkish one.
I attach some photos of a Greek one, sold recently.
One of the most beautifull that I have ever seen (look at the church on the scabbard). And it's funny to see that the blade is Ottoman...of course...
Unfortunatly I don't have any photo of the complete sword...
Sorry it's not mine but i wish...
Kubur

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2016, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi,
It's not a Greek yataghan, I think it's a Turkish one.
I attach some photos of a Greek one, sold recently.
One of the most beautifull that I have ever seen (look at the church on the scabbard). And it's funny to see that the blade is Ottoman...of course...
Unfortunatly I don't have any photo of the complete sword...
Sorry it's not mine but i wish...
Kubur

Beautiful indeed! Thank you very much for the photos!

As with regards to the origins of Balkan/Turkish weapons, i am afraid that in too many instances it would be almost impossible to ascertain a precise origin, with reasonable certainty.

We can only say that is an Ottoman Yataghan, probably Turkish... or Balkans... or Greece...

Kubur · 8th August 2016, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Beautiful indeed! Thank you very much for the photos!

As with regards to the origins of Balkan/Turkish weapons, i am afraid that in too many instances it would be almost impossible to ascertain a precise origin, with reasonable certainty.

We can only say that is an Ottoman Yataghan, probably Turkish... or Balkans... or Greece...

Hi Marius,
mmmmmmmm...I'll just remove Greece form the Balkan area...
Just my opinion...

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2016, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Marius,
mmmmmmmm...I'll just remove Greece form the Balkan area...
Just my opinion...

I know, but if you have a look at Elgood's book on weapons from Greece, you'll find some very similar Yataghans atributted to Greece...

estcrh · 8th August 2016, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I know, but if you have a look at Elgood's book on weapons from Greece, you'll find some very similar Yataghans atributted to Greece...

I have yet to find a scabbard that is like yours, all of the ones I have seen had bands around the throat, yours seems to be unusual. Here is an example of what is said to be a Greek yatagan compared to yours.

eftihis · 8th August 2016, 05:49 PM

Hi, this last one "it said to be greek" yataghan, is clearly an algerian yataghan.
Some comments: Not all Greece had the same style, since they were no borders and the influences/parts/ and craftpeople travelled freely.
Second, untill a few years ago, there have been a lot of Greek buyers with money and interest in these kind of weapons, so the sellers were happy to "baptise" everything "greek" since it sell better. The yataghan posted by Kubur is a Greek one, propably of a post-revolution era (after 1830)

mariusgmioc · 9th August 2016, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

Some comments: Not all Greece had the same style, since they were no borders and the influences/parts/ and craftpeople travelled freely.
Second, untill a few years ago, there have been a lot of Greek buyers with money and interest in these kind of weapons, so the sellers were happy to "baptise" everything "greek" since it sell better. The yataghan posted by Kubur is a Greek one, propably of a post-revolution era (after 1830)

Exactly!

First, there is quite some distance between Crete and Macedonia for example, and the styles can be very different too.

Second, it is exactly the impression I got from Elgood's book: that he attributed the origins of the blades there mostly based on the anecdotal evidence from the owner, which I consider not trustworthy.

mariusgmioc · 29th October 2016, 08:26 PM

As the blade had some spots of superficial rust, I alocated today a couple of hous cleaning it. The rust came off nice and easy but, to my surprise while cleaning the blade some watering pattern became quite apparent.

So I guess the blade is wootz.

Please have a look at the photos and let me know what you think!

And still hoping to get a translation of the cartouches...

26th June 2016, 11:56 AM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Yataghan for translation and comment Hello, Recently purchased this Yataghan and I would appreciate any comments pertaining it. Is it Greek, Bosnian or Turkish? Any date or maker's name in the cartouches? Can anybody help me please with the translation of the cartouches? Best regards, Marius Attached Images

2nd July 2016, 06:15 PM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	I think that without a clear written location or smith's signature, it is close to impossible to accurately locate the place of manufacture since many manufacturing centers shared the same know-how and tradition and smiths and skills traveled frequently from center to center within the Ottoman Empire. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 3rd July 2016 at 09:22 AM.

7th August 2016, 09:38 PM	#21
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi, It's not a Greek yataghan, I think it's a Turkish one. I attach some photos of a Greek one, sold recently. One of the most beautifull that I have ever seen (look at the church on the scabbard). And it's funny to see that the blade is Ottoman...of course... Unfortunatly I don't have any photo of the complete sword... Sorry it's not mine but i wish... Kubur Attached Images

29th October 2016, 08:26 PM	#28
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	It is WOOTZ! As the blade had some spots of superficial rust, I alocated today a couple of hous cleaning it. The rust came off nice and easy but, to my surprise while cleaning the blade some watering pattern became quite apparent. So I guess the blade is wootz. Please have a look at the photos and let me know what you think! And still hoping to get a translation of the cartouches... Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 30th October 2016 at 07:28 AM.

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26th June 2016, 10:12 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	The hilt form looks more Turkish to me than Balkan. Very nice!

27th June 2016, 02:38 PM	#3
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	I HAVE NO IDEA BUT ITS A SUPERB EXAMPLE,I FEEL A LITTLE BIT JEALOUS.

27th June 2016, 04:49 PM	#4
benny.lee Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 42	beautiful

27th June 2016, 04:57 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Got lucky this time. I was the loosing bidder but the winner didn't make the payment so the auction house sold it to me.

30th June 2016, 10:18 AM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Still nobody to help me with the translation?

4th July 2016, 02:04 PM	#9
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Still no translation?

9th July 2016, 09:26 AM	#10
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hello Zifir, Can you please help me with this one as well? Best regards, Marius Mioc

12th July 2016, 07:34 PM	#11
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Hi Marius, Sorry for late reply but have had severe computer problems and system will not accept replies from iPad. Cant help with translation but would like to congratulate you on owning such a beautiful piece, wonderful. I think it may be Turkish. I read somewhere that the warriors threw away their yagtahan scabbards when they went into battle, collecting them later if they were victorious, I don't think that they would throw this scabbard away which leads me to think that it is a status or dress item but whatever it is a really beautiful piece. Regards Miguel

14th July 2016, 07:15 PM	#13
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Well said Marius. Iwas wondering if you have had a chance to research the Yataghan in your new book and if so have you found if it is Balkan or not? Regards Miguel

15th July 2016, 10:57 AM	#15
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Well, certainly it is not from Crete, and i do not think is from any other Greek place either.

18th July 2016, 07:57 PM	#19
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Will gladly offer my opinion when I have received and had a chance to study its content, Hope to receive later this week. Till then Miguel

8th August 2016, 05:49 PM	#26
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Hi, this last one "it said to be greek" yataghan, is clearly an algerian yataghan. Some comments: Not all Greece had the same style, since they were no borders and the influences/parts/ and craftpeople travelled freely. Second, untill a few years ago, there have been a lot of Greek buyers with money and interest in these kind of weapons, so the sellers were happy to "baptise" everything "greek" since it sell better. The yataghan posted by Kubur is a Greek one, propably of a post-revolution era (after 1830)