Ornate Caucasian Shashka ? with Motto - Any Info ?

[casperkor]

I am having a hard time matching this type of sword up for someone. Can anyone help identify this? I have figured out that it is possibly a caucasian shashka and the inscription translates to "In doing right I fear no one" or something to that affect. I haven't been able to find another one like this with the split grip end, motto, 2 wave like things right under the motto, or artwork. I would so appreciate anyones help. It's about 37 1/2" long.
Thank you.

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[Rivkin]

Wow. I'm not a shashka person, so you better ask Ariel, but here is my take:

1. Split grip - circassian, Astvatsaturjan p.59.
2. Ornament - circassian-like (?).
3. Motto - typical XVIII century european motto. Poland, Solingen, Austria or other. Imho it's a "hussar" style blade. Since the real motto should sound as: "Recte faciendo neminem timeas" (?). I think the blade can be a locally (caucasus) made imitation.

[casperkor]

Thanks! I guess I am definitely at the right place.
How can I get in contact with Ariel? Think he would mind if I pm'd him?
Thanks again.

[casperkor]

Hi Rivkin,

Actually, the motto does say "Recte Faciendo Neminem Timeas".

It is just hard to see because that wave like thing is right in front of the "timeas". But if you look at the pic below, it shows part of it.

motto pic

The sword grip is solid silver with some enamel type inlay.

[Tim Simmons]

I no nothing about these things but that is Latin, I think, usually only the chosen people learn Latin at school in the UK. Tim

[ariel]

I have no idea how did I manage to get a reputation of a "Caucasian" guru...
Rivkin is absolutely correct: both the ornament and the narrow split of the pommel are Circassian. They used quite a lot of old European blades , so that also fits.
Such a pity the edge is eaten and the scabbard is lost...
Still, a wonderful piece! Congratulations!

[Titus Pullo]

that's a great looking sword!

[Radu Transylvanicus]

An amazing sabre, really interesting...Few facts and last but not least, my humble opinion:
The RECTE FACIENDO NEMINEM TIMEAS (or in some cases “TIMEO”) is an old medieval and Christian knightly motto and it translates : “By doing right, shall fear no one”. A variation is also RECTE FACIENDO SECURUS meaning : "Safe, by doing right"
The sword of general Adam Albrecht Neipperg (early 1800’s) from Glauco Lombardi Museum in Parma, Italy, bears the exact same motto. It is not the only one, of course... Otherwise, it is too vague in usage, since it was used anywhere from England to Russia in varied times, from family crests to blades and money. In general it is to be observed in the German world more than anywhere else including the old thaler (old coin, the grandfather of dollar) at the very end of 16th, early 17th century ). See this example:
http://www.cgb.fr/monnaies/vso/v11/i...tml?depart=872
In my opinion, much like the rest, I believe the grip is a later addition, by the use of a Caucasian (possibly a Christian Georgian, Armenian) or maybe a Cossack. The trade or trophy blade is probably Polish, between 150 and 300 yeas old, INMHO.

[casperkor]

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate your time and help.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

An amazing sabre, really interesting...Few facts and last but not least, my humble opinion:
The RECTE FACIENDO NEMINEM TIMEAS (or in some cases “TIMEO”) is an old medieval and Christian knightly motto and it translates : “By doing right, shall fear no one”. A variation is also RECTE FACIENDO SECURUS meaning : "Safe, by doing right"
The sword of general Adam Albrecht Neipperg (early 1800’s) from Glauco Lombardi Museum in Parma, Italy, bears the exact same motto. It is not the only one, of course... Otherwise, it is too vague in usage, since it was used anywhere from England to Russia in varied times, from family crests to blades and money. In general it is to be observed in the German world more than anywhere else including the old thaler (old coin, the grandfather of dollar) at the very end of 16th, early 17th century ). See this example:
http://www.cgb.fr/monnaies/vso/v11/i...tml?depart=872
In my opinion, much like the rest, I believe the grip is a later addition, by the use of a Caucasian (possibly a Christian Georgian, Armenian) or maybe a Cossack. The trade or trophy blade is probably Polish, between 150 and 300 yeas old, INMHO.

Sorry, Radu, for disagreeing.
The ornamentation is purely Circassian and not Georgian or Armenian. Armenians did not use shashkas, but rather Iranian-type swords (shamshirs).Cossacks are ethnic Slavs (Russian/Ukrainian) settled in the border areas. Of course, they acquired the taste for the weapons of their adversaries and started using shashkas, but this one is genuine Circassian (no way, of course, to say who was the real owner, because it could have been a trophy). A Tulwar captured and used by a Turk is still Indo-Persian.
This looks to me like a German blade, not Polish: this is based on the ornamentation and the absense of Polish symbolics and inscriptions. There was a vigorous importation of European light cavalry saber blades to the Caucasus, because they were ideal for shashkas and valued a lot. South Germany and Styria were very well represented. Hungarian were considered the top because they emitted a ringing sound when drawn from the scabbard. As a result, many German manufacturers put Hungarian ornamentation on their blades. Locals did the same.
Trade practices did not change much since and one can buy Louis Vuitton bag, Rado watch or Chanel perfume all made in China.
"All warranties expire upon payment of invoice"

[wolviex]

This blade probably isn't Polish. Such blades with inscription like this are very rare in Poland, and in 18th century most of the blades used in this country are very characteristic, with also very characteristic inscriptions. Of course it could be fitted to Polish sabre, imported from i.e. Germany, but this is just a wishful thinking and pure conjecture without evidence.

Regards!

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Originally Posted by ariel

Trade practices did not change much since and one can buy Louis Vuitton bag, Rado watch or Chanel perfume all made in China.
"All warranties expire upon payment of invoice"

. My opinion on blade was based on the look (curvature and style) looked very Central/Eastearn European and with grooves like that its Austro-Hungarian or Polish in most cases, I opted for the Polish version because I cant place where Ive seen some late Polish blades resembling that. But if Wolviex says its not, I should definatelly rethink placing it there.
Ariel interesting mention n that "ringing" of the Hungarian swords, where did you hear about that?

[Tim Simmons]

To me the handle does not seem to be the same quality as the blade or fit that well. Is it me? take a long hard look at pic no3 and I could swear some engraving is covered by the handle. I think the blade is quite nice but we have not seen the back, I am not sure this is the full weight it is purporting to be. Tim

[Tim Simmons]

I am now starting to think that this replacement handle is not that very old. I understand captured blades have always been used but why put an ugly handle on when the original would have been much better and comparable skills would have been around at the time for a replacement, this work is crude of it's type. I suppose it could have been damaged but the replacement is still not old and there is no scabbard. the more I look at this the more unsure I feel that it has any virtue. Tim

[ariel]

Radu:"Ariel interesting mention n that "ringing" of the Hungarian swords, where did you hear about that? "
Astvatsaturyan, where else? Her book is a BIble of the Caucasian swords! If, as the publishers ("Atlant")state, an English edition is in the pipeline, buy it!!!!
As to the issue of "replacement" handle: I do not think it is a replacement. Circassian masters got European blades an had to work with them. Pay attention that the handle has a small "skirt", covering just a bit of the blade. this was a routine part of Shashkas and, if the inscription on the handle was a bit too close to the tang, it was partially covered. The Circassians could not read it anyway. The quality of the silverwork and the niello is very high and definitely up to very demanding local standards. Circassian shashkas were pretty early and had very clean and uncluttered design. This changed when shashkas and kindjals started to be mass produced in large workshops (Omarov, Guzunov, Mudunov etc.). Those used over-sumptious "Kubachi" patterns, a lot of ivory, gilding, enamel etc. for the buyers who wanted a Caucasian souvenir, - exotic, wild, rich, but.... not necessarily battle-ready.
Something to hang on the wall rug in their boring Central Russian estates and impress the neighbors.
This shashka is sober, clean and honest. And, IMHO, genuine from head to toe.

[Rivkin]

While there is certainly no way to say a final word in appraisals, especially when dealing with such a poorly researched subject as caucasian weapons, I would argue against the hilt being of recent manufacture.

The niello work is "circassian classic" - lot's of open space, motiffs of earlier type rather than later dagestani version, with zigzag fillings. If we accept the circassian provenance, it is highly unlikely that it is post-1864 (since at this moment circassians almost disappear as a race, not speaking of their complete eclipse as weapon-makers). Niello seems also to be of a quite good quality, I like the way it stands out. I am no expert, but I would suggest 1840's being more or less a good guess.

The blade is probably a trade-blade, very likely initially made in Solingen or so, not necessary specifically for Caucasus. I like this shashka.

Concerning the "sound-testing" of weapons - it's a classic. If you drop a sword with it flat side towards the flow it is any good it is supposed to emit long, very high pitch sound - at least according to the "tradition".

My pseudo-scientific take would be:
a. You want your sword be very flexible, with high elasticily which corresponds to a relatively weak "viscous-style" damping of oscillations, therefore the sword will emit sounds for a long time.
b. You don't want to have extensive coupling to next to uniform and uniform modes, for it is what you expect to have unless you use some super-nonuniform excitation. Obviously is these modes are excited during strike, their will suck the energy and "jerk around" your hand. Therefore you don't want to hear low-pitch sounds.
Now I have a problem, because I would expect that the good thing would be if the sound would be high-pitch and very weak (we simply do not couple to the modes).

P.S. May be they just liked the beatiful sound, no science in mind .

[Radu Transylvanicus]

We all agree at least that it is a darn beautiful and battle ready sword, a composite with European and Caucasian parts... thats good!
And I have to get the Asvatsaturjian book(s) seems like I missed a lot by not having it on the shelf. How much and where, any other languages than Russian or at least a bilingual edition of some sort. Seems like Asvatsaturjian is no Tirri in any way.

[ariel]

We are in complete agreement with Rivkin. Only his scientific explanation is wa-a-a-ay above my head
I have a Georgian shashka with a perfectly intact and very strong blade that is unmarked. Drawing it out of the scabbard or flicking it with a finger produces a perfect ringing sound that lasts for about 2-3 seconds. I'll ask my son to check the note.
Uncanny....

[Jeff D]

Hi casperkor,

I too am firmly in the "I like it camp". I also agree with idea of a fusion of a European blade with a local Daghestan hilt. I think Rivikin may be a little early with his dates however. I suspect this hilt is early 20th century.

Here is one of my own with a dated hilt of 1322 AH (1902 AD)
Very nice and thanks for showing it to us!
Jeff

[casperkor]

This is great everyone.. thank you..

Jeff, your sword is in beautiful condition!

I am adding some pics. To clarify, there is the rest of the motto underneath the 2 wave things. (timeas). I have added the picture of the other side of the blade as well as one of the view of the top of the blade. There is some interesting decor which might be saying something that I obviously am not understanding.

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Thanks again!

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi casperkor,
I think Rivikin may be a little early with his dates however. I suspect this hilt is early 20th century. Here is one of my own with a dated hilt of 1322 AH (1902 AD)
Jeff

I must agree with Rivkin, IMHO, this sword is well earliear than 20th century in both blade and grip.
But your shashka is dated right and it also looks right for its time.
CASPERKOR can we see the damages on the cutting edge, mainly the upper 1/3 of blade?

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

I must agree with Rivkin in this, IMHO, this sword is well earliear than 20th century in both blade and grip.
But your shashka is dated right and it also looks right for its time.

Hi Radu,

I have no problems with the dating of the blade to late 18th c. early 19th. The hilt maybe earlier but the work looks a little later to me. I posted my hilt to illustrate that the work did continue into the 20th c.
I have been waiting for the English version of Astvatsaturjan since I have no possibility of reading the Russian text (my father was fluent but never taught me a word), I guess it is time to give up that hope . I would appreciate it if someone can show similar work with the early dates.

Thanks
Jeff

[Rivkin]

Jeff:

Your shashka is Dagestan (may be Lak ??), imho it is very different from what we have over here. Because of this I have a small problem understanding what "similar" - similar in terms of that it is shashka with niello and rumi-derivative ornament ? Or similar to yours, or similar to the one in question ?

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Jeff:

Your shashka is Dagestan (may be Lak ??), imho it is very different from what we have over here. Because of this I have a small problem understanding what "similar" - similar in terms of that it is shashka with niello and rumi-derivative ornament ? Or similar to yours, or similar to the one in question ?

Hi Rivkin,

Sorry about the confusion it is my fault. I misunderstood the Circassian atribution in your earlier post. My confusion comes from the fact that I was sure I have seen similar "open patterns" coming from Dagestan in the late 19th early 20th century. Of course now that I am trying to find them I am unable. I will keep looking to see if they were misidentified, or if I misread it. I would love to see more of this Circassian work if you have pictures.

Thanks and sorry again.
Jeff

[Tim Simmons]

Thank you Jeff. I think your post illustrates my feelings well. No doubt the blade is old and does indeed appear like the best late 18th early 19th century steel. Looking at the sword whole as it presents itself today the handle is surely 20th century and there for deserves a little harder scrutiny. I do not mean it is rubbish, if were given to me I would be delighted. I just felt the praise was a little too fulsome. Tim

[ham]

Forum directors and members,

I was somewhat discomfited to find that the person who began this thread was soliciting information regarding an item which, rather than pursuing an exchange of knowledge as a student or collector of antique arms, he simply intended to sell-- the sword is currently for sale on eBay, and the description regurgitates the information provided above. I take exception to this, it is dishonest-- clearly he thinks so too; hence his phrasing: "I am having a hard time matching this type of sword up for someone."
I hope that this is the proper place to propose the following:
That individuals seeking information on items they intend only to sell state plainly that this is their aim in their initial posting, so that forum members and staff may determine whether they wish to contribute. Alternatively, perhaps queries of this kind should be directed to the classified section.

Sincerely,

Ham

[Andrew]

This is unfortunate. We have rules specifically concerning this exact situation:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

If you are the seller of an item or have any financial or personal relationship with the seller of an item which, to the most paranoid among us, could constitute a conflict of interest, then any post you initiate about such item belongs in the swap forum.

There is no enforceable external legal constraint against posting an object for discussion in a forum such as ours and later deciding to sell the item and posting a link to the discussion in the forums. However, if a forum member does this without having received the permission of the authors of the relevant posts in advance for such commercial use of their remarks, this constitutes grounds for cancellation of the offender's forum registration.

[Andrew]

I'm locking this thread to avoid further discussion about this now active auction.

Casperkor, feel free to contact me via email at awinston@aol.com if you're inclined to explain some things.