When in India "died" wootz?

[VANDOO]

OFTEN THOSE WHO FORGED STEEL WERE VERY SECRETIVE AND GUARDED THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND TECHNIQUES VERY CLOSELY. ONLY A TRUSTED APPRENTICE WOULD IN TIME BE TAUGHT AND THOUGH FOREIGNERS AND OUTSIDERS OFTEN TRIED THEY FOUND THE SECRETS OFTEN COULD NOT BE BOUGHT. WHEN THE WEALTHY STOPPED BUYING FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR ARMORY'S.
DEMAND AND PROFIT DIMINISHED AND GOOD APPRENTICES COULD NOT BE EASILY FOUND. SO THE MASTERS OFTEN TOOK THEIR SECRETS TO THE GRAVE WITH THEM. IT HAS HAPPENED IN MANY FIELDS NOT JUST SWORD MAKING. THIS IS A POSSIBLE EXPLANATION BECAUSE MAN'S LIFE SPAN IS SHORT AND MANY WOULD RATHER TAKE THEIR SKILLS AND KNOWLEDGE TO THE GRAVE THAN TO PASS THEM ON.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

OFTEN THOSE WHO FORGED STEEL WERE VERY SECRETIVE AND GUARDED THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND TECHNIQUES VERY CLOSELY. ONLY A TRUSTED APPRENTICE WOULD IN TIME BE TAUGHT AND THOUGH FOREIGNERS AND OUTSIDERS OFTEN TRIED THEY FOUND THE SECRETS OFTEN COULD NOT BE BOUGHT. WHEN THE WEALTHY STOPPED BUYING FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR ARMORY'S.
DEMAND AND PROFIT DIMINISHED AND GOOD APPRENTICES COULD NOT BE EASILY FOUND. SO THE MASTERS OFTEN TOOK THEIR SECRETS TO THE GRAVE WITH THEM. IT HAS HAPPENED IN MANY FIELDS NOT JUST SWORD MAKING. THIS IS A POSSIBLE EXPLANATION BECAUSE MAN'S LIFE SPAN IS SHORT AND MANY WOULD RATHER TAKE THEIR SKILLS AND KNOWLEDGE TO THE GRAVE THAN TO PASS THEM ON.

VANDOO, secrets - it is always interesting and exciting. This creates a certain mystical aura. (By the way, that is what I love the movie "X-Files")

But let's look at the facts. And the facts are that even now in the 21st century, we see a large number of wootz items (swords, swords, daggers, knives and spears). If you count all wootz items in our collections,how many items we get? A few thousand? In addition, several thousand in private collections in Russia. More thousands wootz items in museums in the world. Do not you think that is too many items to talk about some secrets?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

But let's look at the facts. And the facts are that even now in the 21st century, we see a large number of wootz items (swords, swords, daggers, knives and spears). If you count all wootz items in our collections,how many items we get? A few thousand? In addition, several thousand in private collections in Russia. More thousands wootz items in museums in the world. Do not you think that is too many items to talk about some secrets?

Steel from Ancient India (Wootz Steel)
WOOTZ STEEL: AN ADVANCED MATERIAL OF THE ANCIENT WORLD
S. Srinivasan and S. Ranganathan
Department of Metallurgy
Indian Institute of Science
Bangalore

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Steel from Ancient India (Wootz Steel)
WOOTZ STEEL: AN ADVANCED MATERIAL OF THE ANCIENT WORLD
S. Srinivasan and S. Ranganathan
Department of Metallurgy
Indian Institute of Science
Bangalore

Thank you, estcrh. This only confirms my words that wootz steel production was not such a great secret.

Originally Posted by estcrh

I believe that the scientists in 19th century Indian were foreign, mainly British, trying to find ways to extract anything of value from Indian products etc.

You're right, of course. First of all, the British in India were interested in wealth. But as the time from the middle of the 19th century, there are many studies on the ethnography of India.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Thank you, estcrh. This only confirms my words that wootz steel production was not such a great secret.

It is interesting, how could you have so many steel manufacturers making a product for so long and yet people were said to be scurrying everywere to find out how exactly it was made.....and then the method was seemingly lost?????

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

It is interesting, how could you have so many steel manufacturers making a product for so long and yet people were said to be scurrying everywere to find out how exactly it was made.....and then the method was seemingly lost?????

My friend, this is an error - assume that Anosov sought "secret of wootz", traveling to India or Persia. Anosov was - researcher. Anosov studied samples of wootz steel samples which were brought from India, Persia and Central Asia for him. And on the basis of the studied samples of wootz, he developed his own method of smelting wootz steel.

Moreover, note that Ariel wrote:

Originally Posted by ariel

... in 1841 captain Massalski published full description of the process he observed in "Persia" ...

It says that in 1841 continued to produce wootz and it was not kept secret.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

My friend, this is an error - assume that Anosov sought "secret of wootz", traveling to India or Persia. Anosov was - researcher. Anosov studied samples of wootz steel samples which were brought from India, Persia and Central Asia for him. And on the basis of the studied samples of wootz, he developed his own method of smelting wootz steel.

Moreover, note that Ariel wrote:



It says that in 1841 continued to produce wootz and it was not kept secret.

There are records of many people besides Anosov that were seeking methods of steel manufacture in Indian and elsewere, as for captain Massalski, what exactly did he see/report and were did he see it, was he talking about wootz steel or another type of steel.



Science and Civilisation in China: Vol. 5, Chemistry and chemical technology ; Pt. 11, Ferrous metallurgy, Volume 5; Volume 11, by Joseph Needham, 2008.