keris made by empu(forged) and keris made from moulding

[Green]

Because of the demand and popularity of keris collecting lately, it is claimed by some people that some unscrupulous keris makers make cheap keris by using mouldings.

This is v sad because for poor collectors who can't afford to buy 'real' keris may be fooled into buying these fakes (moulded keris) as they are presumably much cheaper than the real forged ones.

My question is can any of you guys let me know how to identify kerises made this way as apposed to the real forged ones.

[David]

Hey Green...i have seen keris that appear to me to be made of cast iron. Sometimes these have fake brass kinatah. I haven't seen them in quite a few years, but they were the kind of souvenir item that you find in SEA import stores in the U.S. that have goods from Bali, Jawa and Madura. I don't know if that is what you mean, but even years ago before i had any study on keris i could tell these weren't the real deal.

[sirek]

if the seller says that is a replica/moulded keris, I have no problem with that.

For example: a good original buddha keris is hard to find, so a replica maybe a good alternative in a collection?

(this buddha keris seems to me a moulded copy, you can clearly see the casting lines and you could still see concrete residues which they have used as a mold)

[GIO]

Yes, the molding lines are clearly visible. But I am asking myself: is this method really convenient (in terms of cost) if compared with a copy made by any village Smith ? I think that melting iron is not so easy and requires a lot of heat and consequently money.
Of course a mass production would cut down cost, but is this the case ?
Would it be convenient to spend some time and eliminate the molding lines with a file and try to sell the fake as an original ?
If we follow this thread it is legitimate to ask ourselves a question: are all sajen, buda and pichit kerises original ?

[David]

Originally Posted by GIO

Yes, the molding lines are clearly visible. But I am asking myself: is this method really convenient (in terms of cost) if compared with a copy made by any village Smith ? I think that melting iron is not so easy and requires a lot of heat and consequently money.
Of course a mass production would cut down cost, but is this the case ?
Would it be convenient to spend some time and eliminate the molding lines with a file and try to sell the fake as an original ?
If we follow this thread it is legitimate to ask ourselves a question: are all sajen, buda and pichit kerises original ?

I think it is fairly safe to say Gio that indeed many sajen and picit keris and especially keris buda are not "original", if by that you mean old. However, i would think the the bulk of recently manufactured sajen, picit and buda keris are intact forged, not cast.
As far as costs, creating a keris like the buda above from a mold is far less time consuming than actually forging it. Yes, more heat is required to create molten iron, but i think the time and effort saved more than makes up for the extra heat necessary to melt the metal down. I could be wrong, but that's the way i see it.
I suppose that someone could spend a little extra time and file down the seams to make these cast keris seem more legitimate. It would make them harder to detect i suppose. But i also think there are other clues beyond the seams that would out such a blade.

[Timo Nieminen]

To cast, you need more/better/hotter technology, but potentially less time. If you're going to make many, then probably less time per blade.

Depending on what alloy they cast with, could be either a brittle decoration (cast iron, i.e., 2-4% carbon), or OK from a "user" perspective.

But for authenticity, not so good. Very little pre-modern iron-casting outside China (where the blast furnace was invented, and steel production by de-carburising cast iron became standard mid-Han dynasty, and casting became standard for cheap tool (and they still make traditionally made cast iron woks, which can be most excellent woks)).

[Green]

thanks all for v good explanation/discussion. Another follow-up naive question:
Can they make pamors from moulding ? or only pamorless keris can be made from cast/mould ?

[Timo Nieminen]

In principle, you can do pamor (or at least its approximate appearance) on a cast blade. Inlaying after casting, or casting with inserts come to mind as possible methods.

(I see fake Chinese bronze castings with patterns. Easier to do with bronze (probably brass rather than bronze) than with iron/steel.)

[A. G. Maisey]

Chalk & cheese

[Timo Nieminen]

Sure, but so is the comparison between forged keris and cast "keris" in the first place.

I don't think anybody would bother doing a serious pattern on a cast keris. I'd only expect a painted-on pamor, as one sees on some Bali sheet-metal keris (or should we say "imitation keris").

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep.