NORTH AFRICAN ?? KNIFE/DAGGER

kahnjar1 · 4th November 2015, 08:12 PM

This just arrived, and I suspect it is North African, although the seller described it as Turkish.
The scabbard is brass and decorated on the face. The handle is horn attached to the tang with iron/steel pins. The blade, (which is decorated along the unsharpened section of bottom edge) and the hanging rings remind me of Morocco, as does the blade style. The top edge is sharp for its total length, and the bottom edge sharp for only half its length. The rings are obviously placed so the knife is hung on a baldric.
The whole piece shows good age patina, so I would think it is likely late 19th or early 20th century.
Dimensions OUT of scabbard are 18" (46cm) overall, with the blade 12 1/2" (32cm)
Any ideas as to ACTUAL origin would be welcomed.
Stu

Bob A · 4th November 2015, 10:46 PM

On no good basis except an impression from the scabbard, I'd hazard a guess of North African, as well, tending toward Morocco.

I should emphasise my overall minimal expertise.

Kubur · 4th November 2015, 11:04 PM

Hi,
I would say Morocco or Tunisia
I have seen this kind of hilt before.
It's a kind of Jbula/Genui, or shula... You know what i mean.
Best,

harrywagner · 5th November 2015, 02:00 AM

The blade style looks like a Koummya, but I have never seen one quite like this.

Miguel · 5th November 2015, 12:54 PM

I would also venture that it is Moroccan judging by the blade style and scabbard but I have not seen that hilt form on a Moroccan Koumaya. As a matter of coincidence if you google Turkish Jambiyas and peruse the images you will see the identical twin of this knife advertised as a 19thC Turkish Jambiiya with bone handle discoulered by age.
Miguel

kahnjar1 · 5th November 2015, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

I would also venture that it is Moroccan judging by the blade style and scabbard but I have not seen that hilt form on a Moroccan Koumaya. As a matter of coincidence if you google Turkish Jambiyas and peruse the images you will see the identical twin of this knife advertised as a 19thC Turkish Jambiiya with bone handle discoulered by age.
Miguel

Hi Miguel,
That is the same dagger shown here for comment. Obviously sellers pics have been posted on Google also.
Stu

Miguel · 5th November 2015, 08:47 PM

Hi Stu, I thought it was strange seeing two knives having identical features in such a short time and of a hilt design on what I think is an old Koumayar blade that I had not seen before. I stumbled across it while looking at various different country`s designs of Jambiyas.
Regards.
Miguel

kahnjar1 · 6th November 2015, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Stu, I thought it was strange seeing two knives having identical features in such a short time and of a hilt design on what I think is an old Koumayar blade that I had not seen before. I stumbled across it while looking at various different country`s designs of Jambiyas.
Regards.
Miguel

Hi Miguel,
I had not thought of this being a reused koumyya blade but it could very well be. The scabbard is of course not a koumyya type, but is purpose made to fit the knife.
I think the clue to the origin of this piece is probably the
decoration on the scabbard.
Any ideas?
Stu

Miguel · 7th November 2015, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Miguel,
I had not thought of this being a reused koumyya blade but it could very well be. The scabbard is of course not a koumyya type, but is purpose made to fit the knife.
I think the clue to the origin of this piece is probably the
decoration on the scabbard.
Any ideas?
Stu

Hi Stu,
Your knife is really intriguing me, I have since revised my opinion and think it is a Shula knife, one of the options offered by Kubur, but even then I have not seen that type of handle on a Shula knife although the blade and scabbard look like Shula. I am surprised that no more of the members who have more knowledge of this type of weapon have not commented.
Miguel

kahnjar1 · 7th November 2015, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Stu,
Your knife is really intriguing me, I have since revised my opinion and think it is a Shula knife, one of the options offered by Kubur, but even then I have not seen that type of handle on a Shula knife although the blade and scabbard look like Shula. I am surprised that no more of the members who have more knowledge of this type of weapon have not commented.
Miguel

Shape of scabbard is all wrong for the Shula. The mouth of this scabbard is distinctly belled. The Shula is not.
Stu

kahnjar1 · 7th November 2015, 09:20 PM

I think the key to identifying where this comes from, is the decoration style on the scabbard.
We can agree that it is North African by the blade style and the baldric method of wearing, but the scabbard shape is a mystery, and the decoration?????

Sub Sahara maybe?.... or tribal Sahara?

Miguel · 7th November 2015, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Shape of scabbard is all wrong for the Shula. The mouth of this scabbard is distinctly belled. The Shula is not.
Stu

Oops, you are correct, I don't know how I missed that, will keep searching.
Miguel

kahnjar1 · 9th November 2015, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I think the key to identifying where this comes from, is the decoration style on the scabbard.
We can agree that it is North African by the blade style and the baldric method of wearing, but the scabbard shape is a mystery, and the decoration?????

Sub Sahara maybe?.... or tribal Sahara?

Does anyone recognise this scabbard DECORATION style?

colin henshaw · 9th November 2015, 09:13 AM

I've seen those back-to-back concave line forms on wooden stools etc from the Nupe (Nigeria). Or, they might represent the Sudan "double C"

That oval petal motif can be found in Omdurman (Sudan) work. Overall the decoration to the scabbard looks to be well south of the Maghreb region...

Martin Lubojacky · 9th November 2015, 10:39 AM

I am of the opinion that this decoration bears signs, which you could find both on Nupe old items and on Berber items incl. African Mediterrean coast in Tunnisia (especially "quarterfoils"). The "composition" of the sheath - I mean "connecting cockets" is suggestiv of Maghreb.

kahnjar1 · 9th November 2015, 07:37 PM

Thanks Colin and Martin.
I think we are starting to get some resolve. I had always leant towards this being a tribal piece of some sort, with (maybe) a reused Koumyya blade.
Any other thoughts Gentlemen?

colin henshaw · 9th November 2015, 09:44 PM

Come to think of it, I've also seen those decorative motifs as on your dagger scabbard, on items of Taureg adornment such as amulet cases and turban ornaments...

kahnjar1 · 10th November 2015, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Come to think of it, I've also seen those decorative motifs as on your dagger scabbard, on items of Taureg adornment such as amulet cases and turban ornaments...

Hi Colin, I think that you are just about on the money. See here... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=telek+dagger
The shape of the hilt on mine is rather close to that of the Telek posted here, so it is not unreasonable to suggest that this is maybe a Taureg creation, using (maybe), a koumyya blade. The decoration is close also though not exact, but then there are many Telek daggers with different decorations on brass scabbards.
Stu

kahnjar1 · 17th November 2015, 07:36 PM

Thanks for the comments so far. Any other ideas Gentlemen?

4th November 2015, 08:12 PM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	NORTH AFRICAN ?? KNIFE/DAGGER This just arrived, and I suspect it is North African, although the seller described it as Turkish. The scabbard is brass and decorated on the face. The handle is horn attached to the tang with iron/steel pins. The blade, (which is decorated along the unsharpened section of bottom edge) and the hanging rings remind me of Morocco, as does the blade style. The top edge is sharp for its total length, and the bottom edge sharp for only half its length. The rings are obviously placed so the knife is hung on a baldric. The whole piece shows good age patina, so I would think it is likely late 19th or early 20th century. Dimensions OUT of scabbard are 18" (46cm) overall, with the blade 12 1/2" (32cm) Any ideas as to ACTUAL origin would be welcomed. Stu Attached Images

5th November 2015, 02:00 AM	#4
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	An unusual Koummya? The blade style looks like a Koummya, but I have never seen one quite like this.

7th November 2015, 09:20 PM	#11
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Where does this decoration style appear? I think the key to identifying where this comes from, is the decoration style on the scabbard. We can agree that it is North African by the blade style and the baldric method of wearing, but the scabbard shape is a mystery, and the decoration????? Sub Sahara maybe?.... or tribal Sahara?

17th November 2015, 07:36 PM	#19
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Any further ideas? Thanks for the comments so far. Any other ideas Gentlemen?

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4th November 2015, 10:46 PM	#2
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	On no good basis except an impression from the scabbard, I'd hazard a guess of North African, as well, tending toward Morocco. I should emphasise my overall minimal expertise.

4th November 2015, 11:04 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi, I would say Morocco or Tunisia I have seen this kind of hilt before. It's a kind of Jbula/Genui, or shula... You know what i mean. Best,

5th November 2015, 12:54 PM	#5
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	I would also venture that it is Moroccan judging by the blade style and scabbard but I have not seen that hilt form on a Moroccan Koumaya. As a matter of coincidence if you google Turkish Jambiyas and peruse the images you will see the identical twin of this knife advertised as a 19thC Turkish Jambiiya with bone handle discoulered by age. Miguel

5th November 2015, 08:47 PM	#7
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Hi Stu, I thought it was strange seeing two knives having identical features in such a short time and of a hilt design on what I think is an old Koumayar blade that I had not seen before. I stumbled across it while looking at various different country`s designs of Jambiyas. Regards. Miguel

9th November 2015, 09:13 AM	#14
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	I've seen those back-to-back concave line forms on wooden stools etc from the Nupe (Nigeria). Or, they might represent the Sudan "double C" That oval petal motif can be found in Omdurman (Sudan) work. Overall the decoration to the scabbard looks to be well south of the Maghreb region...

9th November 2015, 10:39 AM	#15
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	I am of the opinion that this decoration bears signs, which you could find both on Nupe old items and on Berber items incl. African Mediterrean coast in Tunnisia (especially "quarterfoils"). The "composition" of the sheath - I mean "connecting cockets" is suggestiv of Maghreb.

9th November 2015, 07:37 PM	#16
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Thanks Colin and Martin. I think we are starting to get some resolve. I had always leant towards this being a tribal piece of some sort, with (maybe) a reused Koumyya blade. Any other thoughts Gentlemen?

9th November 2015, 09:44 PM	#17
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Come to think of it, I've also seen those decorative motifs as on your dagger scabbard, on items of Taureg adornment such as amulet cases and turban ornaments...