Are these Bidri?

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Harrywagner,

I don't know much about Indian weapons nor I know about the technics but let me ask this question: Why you post it for discussion when you don't have an interest in arguing?

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,
If I wanted to fight I would join the military. I'm interested in civil discussion, and in the opinions of experienced collectors. That doesn't mean I will believe everything I am told. This is especially true for items I own, that I can pick up, turn over and examine with magnification.

Harry

[RSWORD]

Do the scabbards have a wooden core or are they hollow? If they do have a wooden core would you mind taking a picture of it.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Do the scabbards have a wooden core or are they hollow? If they do have a wooden core would you mind taking a picture of it.

They have wood cores, with a small bit of felt on top. It would be great if you can help us with this. Thanks.

[Battara]

Thank you folks for correcting me.

It would seem that there are perhaps two different periods for the Indian modern work.......

And I agree......let's keep this civil - thank you.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by Battara

Thank you folks for correcting me.

It would seem that there are perhaps two different periods for the Indian modern work.......

And I agree......let's keep this civil - thank you.

Thank you. Please feel free to help us by saying what dates you think these were made. I won't be offended. This was never about how old these were to begin with. It was about their decoration technique. Somehow we have gotten side-tracked. However, now that we are here, I will say I believe these are not recent manufacture based on the blade. My two look like old Wootz. Everything I see on that auction site has what I would call 'pattern' steel.

My apologies if I have offended.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thank you. Please feel free to help us by saying what dates you think these were made. I won't be offended. This was never about how old these were to begin with. It was about their decoration technique. Somehow we have gotten side-tracked. However, now that we are here, I will say I believe these are not recent manufacture based on the blade. My two look like old Wootz. Everything I see on that auction site has what I would call 'pattern' steel.

My apologies if I have offended.

Sorry, I think our posts must haven gotten crossed in the mail. I appreciate your help. Thank you.

[Gavin Nugent]

Harry,

Bidri work involves the carving/chiseling of surfaces as does Zar Buland.
My understanding is the Bidri applications are finished flush with the surface of the object and the Zar Buland is raised well above the surface.

Edit note, Koftgari is something again just so there is no confusion.

Indian Art in Delhi, 1903 by George Watt explains the many different varieties of each.

Gavin

[RSWORD]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

They have wood cores, with a small bit of felt on top. It would be great if you can help us with this. Thanks.

The reason I asked the question was to see the patina on the wood core, if there was a core, to help determine age. The wood looks fairly new. Take a smell of it. Does it smell like freshly cut wood or does it smell real musky? A blade that has been around since the 1930's that has been oiled regularly will deposit some of that oil in the wood along with dust, dirt, grime, etc. after a very long time it creates that musky smell. Old things have that smell. New things tend to have a newer smell. Disregarding the oral provenance from the auction and strictly looking at the knife in question my guess would be that it is 30-40 years old. The silver koftgari seems to be decent work and it is not as flamboyant as very recent more mass produced Indian work. If you enjoy and appreciate them don't worry too much if they are 1930's or 1970's. In another 30-40 years they will be antiques for the next generation. Imagine soldiers in the Philippines in the 1940's buying a sword from circa 1900-1910. It would have been 30-40 years old at that time. Now, collectors enjoy and cherish many pieces from that time period. Collect what you like. Take care of them and someone in the future will determine their collectibility at that time.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Hello Detlef,
If I wanted to fight I would join the military. I'm interested in civil discussion, and in the opinions of experienced collectors. That doesn't mean I will believe everything I am told. This is especially true for items I own, that I can pick up, turn over and examine with magnification.

Harry

Hello Harry,

I think you understand me wrong. I don't want to suggest a fight but a discussion. When you are certain with your opinion show why. I don't want to attack you with my post. But when I am positive about something I try to explain why.

Best regards,
Detlef