The development of the Indian katar

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I add..an unusual little postage stamp. The Katar is from http://islamic-arts.org/2012/arms-an...islamic-world/

Description;Quote" A KOFTGARI KATAR AND SCABBARD, INDIA, CIRCA 18TH CENTURY.
The steel blade fullered with swollen tip, hilt with double grip and decorated throughout with gold overlaid inscriptions and floral motifs, the scabbard with chape decorated ensuite". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Staying with the Metropolitan museum where there are about 350 exhibits of Katar on show...I have a number to display which in some cases are very diversified as weapons with not only curved blades but multiple blades as well...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

and

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

finally

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is wonderful to see this thread advancing, and thanks Ian, Fernando and Emanuel for the great additions and images of iconography pertinent to our discussion.

Jens, I must be more careful in my wordings, as I know full well that the katar began in southern regions, I learned that from you many years ago so I must have misspoken suggesting Rajput origins. It does seem that the Rajputs along with the diffusion of these distinctive daggers throughout India, of course used them most notably, but not until 16th c.

Thank you again for responding on my ideas on the use of the carvings in monuments and temples, friezes etc. as benchmarks to establish the timeline for these weapons. It is indeed most unfortunate that so many have been destroyed or lost to natural deterioration, but it seems that the number of archaeological sites is considerable so there is still hope that something more will turn up. I know that you are always vigilant in watching for obscure resources and references with these........and hopefully as more of join in looking for these we might find key examples further,

Ibrahiim, thank you for adding the online data which often turns up in these searches. These references have of course a mixture of valid and pertinent data combined with some unspecified in source material, but all serves as a good benchmark toward comprehensive perspective on these studies.

The very innovative weapons such as firearms in edged weapons in India are fascinating , and follow these same kinds of combination arms which are often seen in European context. It seems these are in most cases more one off type weapons created to impress the noble and wealthy patrons of armourers, and not necessarily regularly produced and issued weapons.

Getting back to the katar, we seem to have exhausted most early sources and artistic representations in the Indian context, however the search goes on. Possibly other narratives from those in other cultures (we already have Arab accounts from ibn Battuta) such as Persian , Chinese or other might have observations or descriptions of these in early context.

Salaams Jim, Indeed the system seems to have been used in certain parts of India and by the famous warlike Rajput warriors... but... it is also a Kerala weapon and used in their ancient martial style (kalaripayattu) Usually weapons in old martial systems go back a very long way...It may not always be the case but it may be a clue to the weapon being much older than we may initially have thought..and perhaps a clue to its origin?

..Please see https://www.keralatourism.org/video-...rtial-art/246/ for a demonstration that includes this weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It seems as if the Katar was worn at court as a badge of office . Moghul and Rajastani paintings often record the wearing of such weapons. I thought I would develop that here...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In have to agree that Pinterest has indeed some magnificent pictures of Katar and as such I recommend this website to Forum on this subject Katars...https://www.pinterest.com/pin/490259109409465483/

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Staying with the Metropolitan museum where there are about 350 exhibits of Katar on show.

Ibrahiim, The Met does have one of the largest and most diverse collections of katar in the world. My records show that there are around 81 katars listed in their collection, 63 of which can be viewed online, and 4 are on display, the Met has not taken to time to photograph around 18 katar. Here is a link to every katar that has been photographed and is online in the Mets collection, these photos can not be seen on the Mets web site as they have been cropped and edited with many new extrordinary close up views of decorations, scabbard tips, etc, many high resolution images that can be clicked on for a detailed view.

https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...f-art-collect/

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ibrahiim, The Met does have one of the largest and most diverse collections of katar in the world. My records show that there are around 81 katars listed in their collection, 63 of which can be viewed online, and 4 are on display, the Met has not taken to time to photograph around 18 katar. Here is a link to every katar that has been photographed and is online in the Mets collection, these photos can not be seen on the Mets web site as they have been cropped and edited with many new extrordinary close up views of decorations, scabbard tips, etc, many high resolution images that can be clicked on for a detailed view.

https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...f-art-collect/

Salaams estcrh... The set up shown at reference above is staggering ! I note how many European blades are converted into Katar. I have read earlier that the older style display a sort of dagger Basket to protect the hand (presumably with gauntlet ) and that is one way of noting the older age...

I previously indicated a Kerala style used in an ancient martial form...and wondered if that may also yeild clues. Meanwhile I am trying to download off Pinterest with not a lot of success....

Ah I think I have it sorted ~ Here are some Katar Hilts ...Clearly diamond and precious stone was added to enhance court katars for VIP/Royalty...The other "morphed style" is the multiple blade two or more spikes...Also shown is the odd variant which fits into a second identical weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahiim and estcrh,
Thank you for the pictures of katars, of which many are very interesting.
However, personallly I find that such pictures should not stand alone, but be followed by some text explaning abut the age and from where in India the katars come/origin. This way others can lear from the look at a katar how old it is and from where in India it comes.
If only picture are shown and no text to follow, the reader does not get an idea of the development of the katar.

Sultans of the South. Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687. MET, 2011.
This is a book with many interesting articles like one by Robert Elgood: Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries. Another article which I will highly recommend is Richard M. Eaton's A Social and Historical Introduction to the Deccan, 1323-1687. This article tells on eight pages about the different influences made upond Deccan from places like Turky, Persia, Mongols and several others, and it gives a relativly good background for understanding how Deccan art developed under the different influences.

Ian,
The following is a quote from the article mentioned above. Maybe it can help when it comes to the language in which the stones are inscribed.
"As early as 1535 Bijapur switched the language of its revenue and Judical accounts from Persian to Marathi; Golconda would do the same with Telugu". I dont know if it will help, as Gujarat could have switched to a third language, but there seem to have been a change of language at the time.

The katar shown is Nayak, from Tanjore or Madurai. 16th to early 17th century. Length 51 cm. Length of blade 33 cm.

Jens

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahiim and estcrh,
Thank you for the pictures of katars, of which many are very interesting.
However, personallly I find that such pictures should not stand alone, but be followed by some text explaning abut the age and from where in India the katars come/origin. This way others can lear from the look at a katar how old it is and from where in India it comes.
If only picture are shown and no text to follow, the reader does not get an idea of the development of the katar.

Jens, all of the edited photos from the Met collection on pinterest have the original description attached to the photo, it is nice having some additional info besides a photo, people posting images would just need to include it when they repost. Also on that particular board all of the katar are numbered which is helpful as many are quite similar.

To me it looks like these particular katar could have come from the same workshop/school, the details are amazing. I am not sure how this type of work was passed down in Indian, in Japan for example certain styles were called schools and they produced workmanship that you can recognise even today.


https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...f-art-collect/

High resolution image.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...948e7e1991.jpg

Indian katars from the collection of the Met Museum, 16th to 17th century, side bar detail views, showing various geometric designs, foliage, birds, fish and yali's (leogryphs), from Thanjavur (formerly Tanjore) in South India. Left to right top, katars #37, #14, #28, #26, #53, #10, #22, #19 Left to right bottom, #44, #43, #47, #38, #39, #27, #25, #18

[Pukka Bundook]

What is so fascinating about these Southern katars, is that the engraving is symbolic, not just ornamental.
I recall Jens, looking up your 'fish' katar, and finding a meaning.
I do not recall it now in sufficient detail to write it here, I may make a mistake.

It is the same with the peacock, and the Yali.
It appears these Met katars are all from Tanjore??

[Rick]

I believe the fish was the first incarnation of Vishnu .

[Jens Nordlunde]

Eric,
Thank you for showing these quite fantastic katar side guards and the addtional museum texts. Do you agree with all the downloaded museum texts here and on your homepage?
I do however fail to see, how these pictures and the museum texts brings us any closer to getting an answer to the question - the development of the katar.

Richard,
Yes the symbolism is there, and in many other places as well.
The fish - Matsya is said to be the first avatar of Vishnu, as he saved the first man from drowning by making himself a fish. It is also used in the coat of armes of Oudh. It was highly appresiated when a golden fish on a pool was given by the Mugahal emperor to someone of destinction.
The peacock, besides from being a royal bird, is connected to Dugra, but also to Murugan the god of war, and the commander-in-chief of the gods.
To this comes that several of the animals and the plants used for decoration can have many different meanings, depending from where in India they are used.

Jens

[Jens Nordlunde]

One other thing that just came to mind is, that the katars shown in Hamza all have relatively short side guards - Hamza was made in mid 16th century.
In Elgoods new book Arms and Armour, at the Jaiput Court, he shows on page 80-81 an all steel katar, without any decoration, being 93.5 cm long with a blade of 48 cm. Dated to late 16th or 17th century.
Maybe this does not have to mean much, as when the katar was fully developed, there would still be some who would want to make 'new' forms.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahiim and estcrh,
Thank you for the pictures of katars, of which many are very interesting.
However, personallly I find that such pictures should not stand alone, but be followed by some text explaning abut the age and from where in India the katars come/origin. This way others can lear from the look at a katar how old it is and from where in India it comes.
If only picture are shown and no text to follow, the reader does not get an idea of the development of the katar.

Sultans of the South. Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687. MET, 2011.
This is a book with many interesting articles like one by Robert Elgood: Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries. Another article which I will highly recommend is Richard M. Eaton's A Social and Historical Introduction to the Deccan, 1323-1687. This article tells on eight pages about the different influences made upond Deccan from places like Turky, Persia, Mongols and several others, and it gives a relativly good background for understanding how Deccan art developed under the different influences.

Ian,
The following is a quote from the article mentioned above. Maybe it can help when it comes to the language in which the stones are inscribed.
"As early as 1535 Bijapur switched the language of its revenue and Judical accounts from Persian to Marathi; Golconda would do the same with Telugu". I dont know if it will help, as Gujarat could have switched to a third language, but there seem to have been a change of language at the time.

The katar shown is Nayak, from Tanjore or Madurai. 16th to early 17th century. Length 51 cm. Length of blade 33 cm.

Jens

Salaams Jens, I rather think the same ...however, there is time to develop the thread with lots of detail especially from learned people such as yourself. I do, however, consider a picture to be worth 1000 words occasionally. At the same time the inclusion of Moghul and Rajastani artwork showing Katar is in itself documentary proof of the age of certain styles and should be viewed in that context...That sort of research is hugely time consuming but I believe beneficial to the overall picture.. By nature a thread is fragmentary and built from a host of tiny pieces of information. The jigsaw may never be complete but with the right steering by those who are expert in the field I think a decent team job is often achieved.

Getting the right blend of content into a post is never easy...especially when one is also learning as well as posting. I thought it important to gather before Forum a much larger collection thus I turned to the Met collection to thicken the volume of weapons...so that an informed assessment could be better made. Note that before I unfurled all those different styles we only had about 6 examples on thread.

What I find interesting about this particular weapon is that the earlier type have the huge, often intricate handguard....I wondered if it was in some way a relative to the Pata Swords however at #4 that seems to be rather remote..or unlikely except for the earlier note "The gauntlet-sword or pata was developed from the katar, according to Middle Ages researcher Tobias Capewell".

As the weapon spread throughout the region it became something of a status symbol, much like the Southeast Asian kris or the Japanese katana.

The British involvement in the East Indies Company period and the Raj had a distinct impression on Katar with many blades being from British swords and easier to date.. Late oddeties like the pistol Katar combinations can be dated to early to mid 19th C. The ancient martial style (kalaripayattu) Kerela points to a diverse application and possibly an earlier development.

Other than that I am learning like everyone else but will try my best to include some definition and description as we roll forward.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I note from readtiger.com an interesting weapon description

Quote"Daggers and knives.

These were of various shapes and kinds, each with a separate name.

Name Description
Katara or Katari A lightweight thrusting knife similar to a poignard and peculiar to India. Made with a hilt whose two branches extended along the arm so as to protect the hand and part of the arm, this weapon had a thick blade with two cutting edges having a breadth of 3 inches (76 mm) at the hilt and a solid point 1 inch (25 mm) wide. The blade could not be bent and was so stiff that nothing but a cuirass could stop it. The hilt had a cross-bar at right angles to the blade, by which the weapon was grasped such that it could only be used for a forward thrust. Some were slightly curved whilst others resembled a fork or were two-bladed. Blades were of various patterns with a length that varied from 9 to 17.5 inches (230 to 440 mm). Push dagger Deccan and Hindustan
Jamadhar This had the same handle as a katara but with a broad and straight blade, while the katara blade could be either straight or curved. The jamadhar katari had a straight blade and a handle held in the same way as a table-knife or sword".Unquote.

In addition for more detail on style by picture see http://mys.yoursearch.me/images/?cat...%20dagger&p=13

The picture below is from the Moghul Period.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I thought I had seen some stunning collections of daggers...until I opened this https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...-short-swords/ ..... Not only does this display lead the reader around the most magnificent daggers available...but it then shows Katar down the ages including the important mid and late 16th C ...from the Vijayanagara Empire.

In a previous post I noted that The katar originated in southern India where its original name was kattari before being altered to katara (romanized as "katar" by the British) in the north. The earliest forms occur in the medieval Vijayanagara Empire. Katar dating back to this period often had a leaf- or shell-like knuckle-guard to protect the back of the hand, but this was discarded by the later half of the 17th century.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all,

Probably the most important Katar information ever revealed to Forum appears on our own pages yet incredibly not yet upon this thread...til now. ..Please see... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10022

See picture below from Katars from Seshagirirayar Mandapa Ranganatha Temple, Srirangam..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hello Ibrahiim,
Thank you for your mails, but unfortunately the thread has taken quite another turn than I had hoped for.
My fault as I, from the start, should have made clear in which direction I would like the thread to move.
All the picture from you and estcrh can not be used, if you are looking for a development/research of the katar.
Posting a lot of katar pictures without any text makes the reader/viewer loos any overview he may have had. Even if/when text had been added it is likely to be museum text, and we know that museum text can be correct, but we also know that it is not always so.
I had hoped for a katar at a time, a few additional comments to any picture/text, to know in which catagory to place the picture, and to see if we agreed that the text was correct.
At the moment ther are so many katar shown, without any comemnts, that it does not make any sence to taake up my original idea, so I will suggest that the thread is used to show your katars.
Jens

[fernando]

Yes Jens, you may either call it a bombardment or an overdose. Can't you skip over that and go back to the development topic as you started, on a step by step basis?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

On the contrary, I have shown several daggers however they are easily cataloged into age and type. I believe there are about 5 styles...sortable initially by age into 16, 17, 18, 19th Century and probably an odd ones out peculiar range of fanciful daggers with pistol or scissor configurations. Another odd style could be the two three spike etc.

Why are you phased out by a few dozen pictures...all of which can be easily slotted into their correct style and age format...? I have actually shown about 44 daggers mainly on 3 posts because these were from a huge collection from the Met....nothing wrong with the Met?....and 44 daggers is nothing. Up to that point we had a paltry half dozen or so examples ...and almost no references where more could be viewed / compared / evaluated/ considered.

The oldest type are the hooded handguard form. The styles with British Sword parts are distinguishable by that...The clean un handguarded variety are date able since they often occur on Mughal Artwork... and could perhaps be called Court Weapons.(Badge of Office)

The fanciful styles are easily recognized.

Here we have a workable data base with a pool of weapons... name one which upsets the equation ?... Unless we show the different variety of Katar how can we format the typology groups? Now since we have many of the fish in the tank can we not simply net the main varieties....and I would start by identifying your oldest form...based on the thread you started at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10022 which contains important information.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Fernando,
Yes you could say that :-).

Hi Ibrahiim,
It seems as if you are already ahead of me with the development, so please go on, as I am sure many members would like to know how the katar developed into what it was a hundred years ago, and I find the different stages quite important.
The lines we follow when researching seem to be different, and as you now is so involved I think you should go on, and I will follow your development with interest.

Jens

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Fernando,
Yes you could say that :-).

Hi Ibrahiim,
It seems as if you are already ahead of me with the development, so please go on, as I am sure many members would like to know how the katar developed into what it was a hundred years ago, and I find the different stages quite important.
The lines we follow when researching seem to be different, and as you now is so involved I think you should go on, and I will follow your development with interest.

Jens

Salaams Jens,
Sir, Being on the same thread which you started is like sitting in on a masterclass...Your experience and knowledge on all things Indian Weaponry is unsurpassed. I urge you to take it on....

My subject is Omani Weapons and Indian weaponry was somehow (probably by religion) totally excluded in the Omani style. It also followed the old addage that if it worked don't change it !

I know nothing about Katars..other than what I have learned from Forum and the occasional spin around the web.

Recently I decided to broaden my outlook and have added posts all over the Ethnographic strata and have learned a great deal about weapons I previously knew nothing about...

This has been of immense help and insofar as Katar are concerned it has been a steep learning curve... which is why I ask you Oh Master, to continue Sir, for I know nothing.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

What Jens is saying is that his intention (and original question) concerns looking into the 'development' of the katar as a unique weapon form, and had initiated this ajenda with references to the triangular shaped blade with transverse handle of 10th century.

It has long been agreed that the katar is unique, apparently to the Indian subcontinent but has remained a bit of a conundrum among arms scholars and collectors consistently from the earliest references.

It is not just the 'name', which is technically 'jamadhar', but became transfixed to 'katar' through an apparent slip in Egerton (as told in Pant, "Indian Arms and Armor", Lahore, 1980) . As the term had become colloquially entrenched as katar, it served no real purpose to further confuse matters by revision, though the case is well known to most who deeply study these arms.

While these panoplies of images are of course well intended, and serve well on the theme "beauty of the katar" and well illustrate the wide variations which have evolved over the centuries, it does not attend to the theme here.
A picture is of course wonderful, and clearly shows the magnificence which exists in the often maligned 'coffee table books', but regardless of the either limited or sometimes non existant captioning, loses importance from an informational aspect .

I agree in that it is hard to discuss and detail observations on singular examples among large bodies of images, so it increases the chances of misunderstanding considerably, a problem often present in these venues as it is.

This is such a great discussion and thread, and the participation is fantastic!!! I hope we can get back to the focus on 'development' and find some clues from some of the great iconography pictured among the entered.
The focus on 'Tanjore' form is entirely valid, and goes to the origin of the katar in the south.....the gauntlet hand covering goes to the later development of the pata.

So the questions remain:
What happened after the transverse handle was placed on an apparent slashing blade in around the 10th century?

What brought the movement of these curiously configured daggers into other areas of the subcontinent from their apparent southerly origins, and when did this transpire?

The southern forms appear to have remained a 'slashing' form, as was the favored use of edged weapons there......was it only in the north where the armor piercing support was added to the blade?

While the blades of katars seem to have native origin, it seems there became large numbers which carry European blades from cut down swords.
When did this begin? and where?


By no means do I mean to discount the amazing entries here with so many wonderful photos of these daggers, but very much hope to exact the continued participation along the original topic Thank you so much guys!!!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hello Ibrahim,
Thank you for you mail - well written and full of irony, but that is all right I dont mind.

Hi Jim,
Thank you for your mail. Nice of you to try to explain it all, but alas it does not work.
This will be my last mail on this thread.
I hope Ibrahiim and estcrh can and will take it further, so that the members can learn about the development of the katar.

Jens

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Eric,
Do you agree with all the downloaded museum texts here and on your homepage?
I
do however fail to see, how these pictures and the museum texts brings us any closer to getting an answer to the question - the development of the katar.

Jens, I have changed some of the Mets descriptions, they are certainly not all correct, on pinterest in general it is easy to edit descriptions. Often images from auction houses, museums and dealers do not provide good or full descriptions and it is easy to add additional details if you have that knowledge. I do get messages quite often by people who disagree with some of the descriptions and I do take every effort to check out what they say and correct wrong information. Pinterest does allow you to make a particular board private (secret) so that only you can see what is stored on it, this is helpful when doing reasearch on photos that you are not sure of yet, you can still share links from a private board.

Unfortunately I am not able to add any additional information on development, other than to observe on what you have already stated and to share my thoughts. It is my opinion that the kater may have developed in relation to the development of Indian armor, what may have started out as a light slashing weapon may have had to be significantly strenghtened in order to penetrate the ever stronger armor that Indian warriors wore. Finding older carvings, and illustrations if they are available that can be accurately dated and that show kater (and armor) would be one of the best ways to see the development other than going to India in person.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all,

Probably the most important Katar information ever revealed to Forum appears on our own pages yet incredibly not yet upon this thread...til now. ..Please see... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10022

Yes, the images should be here.