The development of the Indian katar

[Jim McDougall]

It is wonderful to see this thread advancing, and thanks Ian, Fernando and Emanuel for the great additions and images of iconography pertinent to our discussion.

Jens, I must be more careful in my wordings, as I know full well that the katar began in southern regions, I learned that from you many years ago so I must have misspoken suggesting Rajput origins. It does seem that the Rajputs along with the diffusion of these distinctive daggers throughout India, of course used them most notably, but not until 16th c.

Thank you again for responding on my ideas on the use of the carvings in monuments and temples, friezes etc. as benchmarks to establish the timeline for these weapons. It is indeed most unfortunate that so many have been destroyed or lost to natural deterioration, but it seems that the number of archaeological sites is considerable so there is still hope that something more will turn up. I know that you are always vigilant in watching for obscure resources and references with these........and hopefully as more of join in looking for these we might find key examples further,

Ibrahiim, thank you for adding the online data which often turns up in these searches. These references have of course a mixture of valid and pertinent data combined with some unspecified in source material, but all serves as a good benchmark toward comprehensive perspective on these studies.

The very innovative weapons such as firearms in edged weapons in India are fascinating , and follow these same kinds of combination arms which are often seen in European context. It seems these are in most cases more one off type weapons created to impress the noble and wealthy patrons of armourers, and not necessarily regularly produced and issued weapons.

Getting back to the katar, we seem to have exhausted most early sources and artistic representations in the Indian context, however the search goes on. Possibly other narratives from those in other cultures (we already have Arab accounts from ibn Battuta) such as Persian , Chinese or other might have observations or descriptions of these in early context.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I add..an unusual little postage stamp. The Katar is from http://islamic-arts.org/2012/arms-an...islamic-world/

Description;Quote" A KOFTGARI KATAR AND SCABBARD, INDIA, CIRCA 18TH CENTURY.
The steel blade fullered with swollen tip, hilt with double grip and decorated throughout with gold overlaid inscriptions and floral motifs, the scabbard with chape decorated ensuite". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Staying with the Metropolitan museum where there are about 350 exhibits of Katar on show...I have a number to display which in some cases are very diversified as weapons with not only curved blades but multiple blades as well...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

and

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

finally

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Staying with the Metropolitan museum where there are about 350 exhibits of Katar on show.

Ibrahiim, The Met does have one of the largest and most diverse collections of katar in the world. My records show that there are around 81 katars listed in their collection, 63 of which can be viewed online, and 4 are on display, the Met has not taken to time to photograph around 18 katar. Here is a link to every katar that has been photographed and is online in the Mets collection, these photos can not be seen on the Mets web site as they have been cropped and edited with many new extrordinary close up views of decorations, scabbard tips, etc, many high resolution images that can be clicked on for a detailed view.

https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...f-art-collect/

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ibrahiim, The Met does have one of the largest and most diverse collections of katar in the world. My records show that there are around 81 katars listed in their collection, 63 of which can be viewed online, and 4 are on display, the Met has not taken to time to photograph around 18 katar. Here is a link to every katar that has been photographed and is online in the Mets collection, these photos can not be seen on the Mets web site as they have been cropped and edited with many new extrordinary close up views of decorations, scabbard tips, etc, many high resolution images that can be clicked on for a detailed view.

https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...f-art-collect/

Salaams estcrh... The set up shown at reference above is staggering ! I note how many European blades are converted into Katar. I have read earlier that the older style display a sort of dagger Basket to protect the hand (presumably with gauntlet ) and that is one way of noting the older age...

I previously indicated a Kerala style used in an ancient martial form...and wondered if that may also yeild clues. Meanwhile I am trying to download off Pinterest with not a lot of success....

Ah I think I have it sorted ~ Here are some Katar Hilts ...Clearly diamond and precious stone was added to enhance court katars for VIP/Royalty...The other "morphed style" is the multiple blade two or more spikes...Also shown is the odd variant which fits into a second identical weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahiim and estcrh,
Thank you for the pictures of katars, of which many are very interesting.
However, personallly I find that such pictures should not stand alone, but be followed by some text explaning abut the age and from where in India the katars come/origin. This way others can lear from the look at a katar how old it is and from where in India it comes.
If only picture are shown and no text to follow, the reader does not get an idea of the development of the katar.

Sultans of the South. Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687. MET, 2011.
This is a book with many interesting articles like one by Robert Elgood: Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries. Another article which I will highly recommend is Richard M. Eaton's A Social and Historical Introduction to the Deccan, 1323-1687. This article tells on eight pages about the different influences made upond Deccan from places like Turky, Persia, Mongols and several others, and it gives a relativly good background for understanding how Deccan art developed under the different influences.

Ian,
The following is a quote from the article mentioned above. Maybe it can help when it comes to the language in which the stones are inscribed.
"As early as 1535 Bijapur switched the language of its revenue and Judical accounts from Persian to Marathi; Golconda would do the same with Telugu". I dont know if it will help, as Gujarat could have switched to a third language, but there seem to have been a change of language at the time.

The katar shown is Nayak, from Tanjore or Madurai. 16th to early 17th century. Length 51 cm. Length of blade 33 cm.

Jens

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahiim and estcrh,
Thank you for the pictures of katars, of which many are very interesting.
However, personallly I find that such pictures should not stand alone, but be followed by some text explaning abut the age and from where in India the katars come/origin. This way others can lear from the look at a katar how old it is and from where in India it comes.
If only picture are shown and no text to follow, the reader does not get an idea of the development of the katar.

Jens, all of the edited photos from the Met collection on pinterest have the original description attached to the photo, it is nice having some additional info besides a photo, people posting images would just need to include it when they repost. Also on that particular board all of the katar are numbered which is helpful as many are quite similar.

To me it looks like these particular katar could have come from the same workshop/school, the details are amazing. I am not sure how this type of work was passed down in Indian, in Japan for example certain styles were called schools and they produced workmanship that you can recognise even today.


https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...f-art-collect/

High resolution image.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...948e7e1991.jpg

Indian katars from the collection of the Met Museum, 16th to 17th century, side bar detail views, showing various geometric designs, foliage, birds, fish and yali's (leogryphs), from Thanjavur (formerly Tanjore) in South India. Left to right top, katars #37, #14, #28, #26, #53, #10, #22, #19 Left to right bottom, #44, #43, #47, #38, #39, #27, #25, #18

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahiim and estcrh,
Thank you for the pictures of katars, of which many are very interesting.
However, personallly I find that such pictures should not stand alone, but be followed by some text explaning abut the age and from where in India the katars come/origin. This way others can lear from the look at a katar how old it is and from where in India it comes.
If only picture are shown and no text to follow, the reader does not get an idea of the development of the katar.

Sultans of the South. Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687. MET, 2011.
This is a book with many interesting articles like one by Robert Elgood: Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries. Another article which I will highly recommend is Richard M. Eaton's A Social and Historical Introduction to the Deccan, 1323-1687. This article tells on eight pages about the different influences made upond Deccan from places like Turky, Persia, Mongols and several others, and it gives a relativly good background for understanding how Deccan art developed under the different influences.

Ian,
The following is a quote from the article mentioned above. Maybe it can help when it comes to the language in which the stones are inscribed.
"As early as 1535 Bijapur switched the language of its revenue and Judical accounts from Persian to Marathi; Golconda would do the same with Telugu". I dont know if it will help, as Gujarat could have switched to a third language, but there seem to have been a change of language at the time.

The katar shown is Nayak, from Tanjore or Madurai. 16th to early 17th century. Length 51 cm. Length of blade 33 cm.

Jens

Salaams Jens, I rather think the same ...however, there is time to develop the thread with lots of detail especially from learned people such as yourself. I do, however, consider a picture to be worth 1000 words occasionally. At the same time the inclusion of Moghul and Rajastani artwork showing Katar is in itself documentary proof of the age of certain styles and should be viewed in that context...That sort of research is hugely time consuming but I believe beneficial to the overall picture.. By nature a thread is fragmentary and built from a host of tiny pieces of information. The jigsaw may never be complete but with the right steering by those who are expert in the field I think a decent team job is often achieved.

Getting the right blend of content into a post is never easy...especially when one is also learning as well as posting. I thought it important to gather before Forum a much larger collection thus I turned to the Met collection to thicken the volume of weapons...so that an informed assessment could be better made. Note that before I unfurled all those different styles we only had about 6 examples on thread.

What I find interesting about this particular weapon is that the earlier type have the huge, often intricate handguard....I wondered if it was in some way a relative to the Pata Swords however at #4 that seems to be rather remote..or unlikely except for the earlier note "The gauntlet-sword or pata was developed from the katar, according to Middle Ages researcher Tobias Capewell".

As the weapon spread throughout the region it became something of a status symbol, much like the Southeast Asian kris or the Japanese katana.

The British involvement in the East Indies Company period and the Raj had a distinct impression on Katar with many blades being from British swords and easier to date.. Late oddeties like the pistol Katar combinations can be dated to early to mid 19th C. The ancient martial style (kalaripayattu) Kerela points to a diverse application and possibly an earlier development.

Other than that I am learning like everyone else but will try my best to include some definition and description as we roll forward.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is wonderful to see this thread advancing, and thanks Ian, Fernando and Emanuel for the great additions and images of iconography pertinent to our discussion.

Jens, I must be more careful in my wordings, as I know full well that the katar began in southern regions, I learned that from you many years ago so I must have misspoken suggesting Rajput origins. It does seem that the Rajputs along with the diffusion of these distinctive daggers throughout India, of course used them most notably, but not until 16th c.

Thank you again for responding on my ideas on the use of the carvings in monuments and temples, friezes etc. as benchmarks to establish the timeline for these weapons. It is indeed most unfortunate that so many have been destroyed or lost to natural deterioration, but it seems that the number of archaeological sites is considerable so there is still hope that something more will turn up. I know that you are always vigilant in watching for obscure resources and references with these........and hopefully as more of join in looking for these we might find key examples further,

Ibrahiim, thank you for adding the online data which often turns up in these searches. These references have of course a mixture of valid and pertinent data combined with some unspecified in source material, but all serves as a good benchmark toward comprehensive perspective on these studies.

The very innovative weapons such as firearms in edged weapons in India are fascinating , and follow these same kinds of combination arms which are often seen in European context. It seems these are in most cases more one off type weapons created to impress the noble and wealthy patrons of armourers, and not necessarily regularly produced and issued weapons.

Getting back to the katar, we seem to have exhausted most early sources and artistic representations in the Indian context, however the search goes on. Possibly other narratives from those in other cultures (we already have Arab accounts from ibn Battuta) such as Persian , Chinese or other might have observations or descriptions of these in early context.

Salaams Jim, Indeed the system seems to have been used in certain parts of India and by the famous warlike Rajput warriors... but... it is also a Kerala weapon and used in their ancient martial style (kalaripayattu) Usually weapons in old martial systems go back a very long way...It may not always be the case but it may be a clue to the weapon being much older than we may initially have thought..and perhaps a clue to its origin?

..Please see https://www.keralatourism.org/video-...rtial-art/246/ for a demonstration that includes this weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It seems as if the Katar was worn at court as a badge of office . Moghul and Rajastani paintings often record the wearing of such weapons. I thought I would develop that here...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In have to agree that Pinterest has indeed some magnificent pictures of Katar and as such I recommend this website to Forum on this subject Katars...https://www.pinterest.com/pin/490259109409465483/