Basket hilted swords

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th September 2015, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I thought you may have solved this mystery until I looked at the dates Hounslow was in business. I have gone through a few articles on the Hounslow makers and whilst two of these show pictures of the fox with the H and describe this as an authentic Hounslow mark, there is no historical link in the body of the articles to support this or link it with a particular maker.

It appears Hounslow opened for business in 1620 and ceased manufacturing in 1660, which in some cases is earlier than a number of blades I have seen that bear this particular mark.

One explanation might be that a family that left the Hounslow business continued to use the mark into the 1700’s. Time wise the Harvey family remain a better fit for the dates of swords bearing this variation on the fox mark which we do know they used. Also apart from the missing S, the fox mark is virtually identical to the one used by Harvey.

If we could find a link between the Harvey’s and Hounslow then we might be on to something.

Cheers Cathey

Salaams Cathey, I think you are right...There is no defined link to join Hounslow with the running Fox or the H for that matter. There are swords from Shotley Bridge that carry both the Shotley Bridge wording and the Running Fox which is also not Chrystal clear since even Harvey Withers calls IT a Running Horse !

On analysis Hounslo or Hownsloe or Hownslow swords carried entirely different marks often based on the Me Fecit script and variations of it. I can find no proof of marks of Hounslow of any kind of Fox...

Clearly then SH and H were two marks inside the Running Fox outline of the Harveys and also Harvey and apparently a HAR and a VEY under...as a block inscription with no fox at all.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 12th September 2015, 05:38 PM

I have found a most interesting note on http://www.mocavo.co.uk/The-Victoria...2-3/704590/320 which may have escaped scrutiny... This old volume places many things in perspective...

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2015, 02:59 PM

Ibrahiim,
Thank you so much for always adding these interesting and astute observations and especially these remarkably pertinent links!
These additions perfectly illustrate that researching these weapons and the intriguing elements of their unique histories often involves forays into most unexpected and obscure sources.
These are the kinds of details which truly add to the dimension of our understanding and appreciation of these arms!

Best regards,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th September 2015, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim,
Thank you so much for always adding these interesting and astute observations and especially these remarkably pertinent links!
These additions perfectly illustrate that researching these weapons and the intriguing elements of their unique histories often involves forays into most unexpected and obscure sources.
These are the kinds of details which truly add to the dimension of our understanding and appreciation of these arms!

Best regards,
Jim

Salaams Jim, It is a pleasure to take part albeit as a virtual observer in this masterclass originated by Cathey. Your input is an enormous inspiration to all Forum members especially those who enjoy, as I do, the potential for research ...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Cathey · 20th September 2015, 05:59 AM

Hi Guys

I have posted one of my three Black Watch pattern baskets early in this thread, so I will now post the remaining two, starting with this one.

Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Overall Length: 92.2 cm (36.3 inches)
Blade length: 76.4 cm (30.1 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.121 cm (1.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13.3 cm (5.2 inches)
Inside grip length: 11.3 cm (4.4 inches)
Marks, etc: The Pommel is marked with an F over 20

Description
English basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1760 with 30.2” blade 76.5 cm. Overall Length 36 ¾ “ 93.3 cm. A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, straight single edged fullered blade. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an F over 20) with spherical button, wire bound leather grip.

This hilt is typical of those manufactured by Dru Drury Sr, London, however as the blade is unsigned this cannot be confirmed. Whilst this pattern of basket hilt is usually regarded as having been produced by Jeffery’s or Dury, it is probable that Jeffery’s and Drury sub-contracted for finished guards, pommels and blades from Birmingham and assembled them at their London Workshops utilizing their own grips and grip coverings.

If anyone has any thoughts on what the F over 20 signifies on the pommel I would be most grateful.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341
DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s & pp142 plate 241.S
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd September 2015, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I have posted one of my three Black Watch pattern baskets early in this thread, so I will now post the remaining two, starting with this one.

Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Overall Length: 92.2 cm (36.3 inches)
Blade length: 76.4 cm (30.1 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.121 cm (1.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13.3 cm (5.2 inches)
Inside grip length: 11.3 cm (4.4 inches)
Marks, etc: The Pommel is marked with an F over 20

Description
English basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1760 with 30.2” blade 76.5 cm. Overall Length 36 ¾ “ 93.3 cm. A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, straight single edged fullered blade. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an F over 20) with spherical button, wire bound leather grip.

This hilt is typical of those manufactured by Dru Drury Sr, London, however as the blade is unsigned this cannot be confirmed. Whilst this pattern of basket hilt is usually regarded as having been produced by Jeffery’s or Dury, it is probable that Jeffery’s and Drury sub-contracted for finished guards, pommels and blades from Birmingham and assembled them at their London Workshops utilizing their own grips and grip coverings.

If anyone has any thoughts on what the F over 20 signifies on the pommel I would be most grateful.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341
DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s & pp142 plate 241.S
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Salaams Cathey, May I ask is the letter an F or could it be an E ?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 22nd September 2015, 07:44 PM

It seems I have seen these kind of letter/number inscriptions on others of these British basket hilts. Naturally my inclination would be that it would likely be a rack number as these were to other ranks. While it is a thought to possibly be production number or maker/vendor number as these components were outsourced usually, I doubt something in lots like pommels would be so marked.

This military pattern is of course most interesting, and the producers named are the most typically seen. I have seen these hilts with what appeared to be a M1788 light cavalry sabre blade, and wonder how these might have been issued in the latter 18th century with curved blade.
Flank company perhaps?
Eljay, any thoughts?

20th September 2015, 05:59 AM	#5
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Scottish Black Watch 42nd Highland Regiment Hi Guys I have posted one of my three Black Watch pattern baskets early in this thread, so I will now post the remaining two, starting with this one. Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century) Overall Length: 92.2 cm (36.3 inches) Blade length: 76.4 cm (30.1 inches) Blade widest point: 3.121 cm (1.2 inches) Hilt widest point: 13.3 cm (5.2 inches) Inside grip length: 11.3 cm (4.4 inches) Marks, etc: The Pommel is marked with an F over 20 Description English basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1760 with 30.2” blade 76.5 cm. Overall Length 36 ¾ “ 93.3 cm. A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, straight single edged fullered blade. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an F over 20) with spherical button, wire bound leather grip. This hilt is typical of those manufactured by Dru Drury Sr, London, however as the blade is unsigned this cannot be confirmed. Whilst this pattern of basket hilt is usually regarded as having been produced by Jeffery’s or Dury, it is probable that Jeffery’s and Drury sub-contracted for finished guards, pommels and blades from Birmingham and assembled them at their London Workshops utilizing their own grips and grip coverings. If anyone has any thoughts on what the F over 20 signifies on the pommel I would be most grateful. References: BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341 DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784 NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s & pp142 plate 241.S Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100 Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

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12th September 2015, 05:38 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I have found a most interesting note on http://www.mocavo.co.uk/The-Victoria...2-3/704590/320 which may have escaped scrutiny... This old volume places many things in perspective...

16th September 2015, 02:59 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,789	Ibrahiim, Thank you so much for always adding these interesting and astute observations and especially these remarkably pertinent links! These additions perfectly illustrate that researching these weapons and the intriguing elements of their unique histories often involves forays into most unexpected and obscure sources. These are the kinds of details which truly add to the dimension of our understanding and appreciation of these arms! Best regards, Jim

22nd September 2015, 07:44 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,789	It seems I have seen these kind of letter/number inscriptions on others of these British basket hilts. Naturally my inclination would be that it would likely be a rack number as these were to other ranks. While it is a thought to possibly be production number or maker/vendor number as these components were outsourced usually, I doubt something in lots like pommels would be so marked. This military pattern is of course most interesting, and the producers named are the most typically seen. I have seen these hilts with what appeared to be a M1788 light cavalry sabre blade, and wonder how these might have been issued in the latter 18th century with curved blade. Flank company perhaps? Eljay, any thoughts?