When is a Parang Latok not a Parang Latok?......

CharlesS · 27th December 2005, 09:00 PM

....well, technically, according to Zonneveld(Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago), when it's a SADAP.

The sadap is identical to a parang lotok except that its elbow is octagonal, or eight-sided. The example below has become one of my favorite pieces. It is of superb quality throughtout, most especially the heavy blade.

Tim Simmons · 27th December 2005, 09:22 PM

Go on rub our noses in it!!

.

zamboanga · 28th December 2005, 05:26 AM

Wow!

Dimensions of this piece? The wrapping on the hilt is as thin as it can get.

kino · 28th December 2005, 05:33 AM

....all along I thought I had a Parang Latok....
Thanks for clearing it up.

Battara · 28th December 2005, 05:34 AM

Chuckmeister, you have a good piece there. I love the chiseling.

Henk · 28th December 2005, 09:49 AM

Woooow, both pieces are just magnificent. Congrats on such pieces. Not a parang latok, but still.......

VVV · 28th December 2005, 03:08 PM

Hi all,

Except for the octagonal elbow, as Charles pointed out, usually the sadap has more flowery carvings at the hilt than the Latok.
The reason is that the sadap is Melanau (Malay Muslims) and the Latok is Land Dayak so they belong to different tribes.
My Sadap is also almost 1,5 times bigger overall than my Latoks.
The Latoks also differ between Dayak tribes from more simple wooden hilts to the carved antler horn hilt (enclosed Latok hilt examples below).

Michael

CharlesS · 28th December 2005, 05:50 PM

Gorgeous example Michael, and my guess is that one is certainly for someone of status as it is magnificently mounted.

The Malay distinction is interesting; I am surprised Zonneveld did not mention it except in one discreet notation, but afterall, his book is not about Malay weapons!

Dajak · 28th December 2005, 05:58 PM

Tha Latok sadap is not a malay weapon

Dajak · 28th December 2005, 06:01 PM

Tha Latok sadap is not a malay weapon

Is is one off the swords off the Sarawak tribes By the time it was not in malay hands

Dajak · 28th December 2005, 06:13 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/newattachment.php

Dajak · 28th December 2005, 08:59 PM

In the Milano sadap a variety of latok the schoulder is octagonal in section.

This means 8 flat sides

This can be read in the Provisional classification of the Swords of the Sarawak Tribes from R shelford.

VVV · 28th December 2005, 09:31 PM

Hi Bennie,

I have read my Shelford which is the best source, so far, for classifying the different Latok versions.
I am travelling at the moment so I don't have it with me.
But maybe you could fill in which of the Latok that belongs to which tribe?
The Melanau (modern spelling of Milano) are often Muslim and seems to
be more Malay in their customs than the Dayak tribes.

Michael

PS By the way - isn't it time for you to settle some other matters?

ariel · 28th December 2005, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

In the Milano sadap a variety of latok the schoulder is octagonal in section.

This means 8 flat sides

This can be read in the Provisional classification of the Swords of the Sarawak Tribes from R shelford.

Where do I get this book?

kino · 28th December 2005, 11:53 PM

BTW, beautiful scabbards. Are all the blades pattern welded? Did they ever have Pamur blades?

Battara · 29th December 2005, 02:58 AM

Folks, I am quite impressed by the silver work on the hilts and on the scabbards. Now I want one too.

kai · 29th December 2005, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Where do I get this book?

Shelford, R. W. C. (1901): A provisional classification of the swords of the Sarawak tribes. Journal of the Anthropological Institute, 31: 219-228.

VVV · 29th December 2005, 01:59 PM

Kino,

I don't know if it's "true pamor" but some blades looks very much like this one in Artzi's Gallery (which I also suspect is Melanau):

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=76

Michael

Dajak · 30th December 2005, 04:01 AM

Hi there in my opinion a laminated blade does not have to be a pamor blade
Let me know how the people from the weapon forum think about this.

Another ting is; the Malay people must have come not later than the early part off the 15th century to Borneo.

Probably the malays came directly from the Malay Peninsula, but they must have mixed largely with the Kadayans, Melanaus and other costal people.

So this means before the malay people mixed with them the melanaus already exist . and means they are not pure malay people in my opinion.

(this can be read in Headhunters Alfred C. Haddon page 161 (the little book ) leaving Kuching in 1899 published in 1901 Headhunters : Black White, and Brown )

27th December 2005, 09:00 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	When is a Parang Latok not a Parang Latok?...... ....well, technically, according to Zonneveld(Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago), when it's a *SADAP. The sadap* is identical to a parang lotok except that its elbow is octagonal, or eight-sided. The example below has become one of my favorite pieces. It is of superb quality throughtout, most especially the heavy blade. Attached Images Last edited by CharlesS; 27th December 2005 at 09:02 PM. Reason: spelling error

28th December 2005, 05:33 AM	#4
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	....all along I thought I had a Parang Latok.... Thanks for clearing it up. Attached Images

28th December 2005, 03:08 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi all, Except for the octagonal elbow, as Charles pointed out, usually the sadap has more flowery carvings at the hilt than the Latok. The reason is that the sadap is Melanau (Malay Muslims) and the Latok is Land Dayak so they belong to different tribes. My Sadap is also almost 1,5 times bigger overall than my Latoks. The Latoks also differ between Dayak tribes from more simple wooden hilts to the carved antler horn hilt (enclosed Latok hilt examples below). Michael Attached Images

28th December 2005, 06:13 PM	#11
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/newattachment.php Attached Images

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27th December 2005, 09:22 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Go on rub our noses in it!! .

28th December 2005, 05:26 AM	#3
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	Wow! Dimensions of this piece? The wrapping on the hilt is as thin as it can get.

28th December 2005, 05:34 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Chuckmeister, you have a good piece there. I love the chiseling.

28th December 2005, 09:49 AM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Woooow, both pieces are just magnificent. Congrats on such pieces. Not a parang latok, but still.......

28th December 2005, 05:50 PM	#8
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Gorgeous example Michael, and my guess is that one is certainly for someone of status as it is magnificently mounted. The Malay distinction is interesting; I am surprised Zonneveld did not mention it except in one discreet notation, but afterall, his book is not about Malay weapons!

28th December 2005, 05:58 PM	#9
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Tha Latok sadap is not a malay weapon

28th December 2005, 06:01 PM	#10
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Tha Latok sadap is not a malay weapon Is is one off the swords off the Sarawak tribes By the time it was not in malay hands

28th December 2005, 08:59 PM	#12
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	In the Milano sadap a variety of latok the schoulder is octagonal in section. This means 8 flat sides This can be read in the Provisional classification of the Swords of the Sarawak Tribes from R shelford.

28th December 2005, 09:31 PM	#13
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Bennie, I have read my Shelford which is the best source, so far, for classifying the different Latok versions. I am travelling at the moment so I don't have it with me. But maybe you could fill in which of the Latok that belongs to which tribe? The Melanau (modern spelling of Milano) are often Muslim and seems to be more Malay in their customs than the Dayak tribes. Michael PS By the way - isn't it time for you to settle some other matters?

28th December 2005, 11:53 PM	#15
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	BTW, beautiful scabbards. Are all the blades pattern welded? Did they ever have Pamur blades?

29th December 2005, 02:58 AM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Folks, I am quite impressed by the silver work on the hilts and on the scabbards. Now I want one too.

29th December 2005, 01:59 PM	#18
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Kino, I don't know if it's "true pamor" but some blades looks very much like this one in Artzi's Gallery (which I also suspect is Melanau): http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=76 Michael

30th December 2005, 04:01 AM	#19
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi there in my opinion a laminated blade does not have to be a pamor blade Let me know how the people from the weapon forum think about this. Another ting is; the Malay people must have come not later than the early part off the 15th century to Borneo. Probably the malays came directly from the Malay Peninsula, but they must have mixed largely with the Kadayans, Melanaus and other costal people. So this means before the malay people mixed with them the melanaus already exist . and means they are not pure malay people in my opinion. (this can be read in Headhunters Alfred C. Haddon page 161 (the little book ) leaving Kuching in 1899 published in 1901 Headhunters : Black White, and Brown )