13th century sword mystery

[harrywagner]

The Smithsonian magazine has an interesting article about a sword in the British museum. They are looking for help in deciphering the inscriptions the blade. The full-text article can be found here:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-...NjIwNDYzNDI3S0

A crappy URL, but hopefully it will work.

Harry

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

The Smithsonian magazine has an interesting article about a sword in the British museum. They are looking for help in deciphering the inscriptions the blade. The full-text article can be found here:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-...NjIwNDYzNDI3S0

A crappy URL, but hopefully it will work.

Harry

Salaams Harry Wagner ...I hope you do not mind if I use the information here on my thread at Odd Sword...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Lee]

This sword is included in Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword as X.15 (page 34) where there is also an image of the reverse showing a similarly prepared series of symbols. Mr. Oakeshott proposes an earlier date in that work, though I must admit some personal skepticism about that. Besides the possibility of being coherent in an unknown language, the inscription may possibly also be either an acronym (likely of a religious phrase or prayer) or entirely decorative in nature.

[Jim McDougall]

Lee, it is wonderful to have you posting on this, and of course most appropriate to have you here on this topic!!!

At first I thought this Smithsonian reference was to the Witham swords, which though newsworthy over a period of time, occasionally have been brought to the fore rather sensationalizing the 'mysterious' inscriptions. However, this seems clearly a separate case.

It seems Oakeshott included mention and drawings of some of these 'inscriptions' in his "Archaeology of Weapons", and that he was somewhat of the opinion they were acronyms probably of sacerdotal or other religious significance.

What is interesting is that these apparent acronyms or otherwise sequenced letters and interpolated either glyphs, symbols and perhaps flourished letter characters indeed defy any sort of reliable interpretation.

In the discussion of such inscription on a presently concurrent thread, under "Odd Sword", attempts are made to decipher the letters into some tangible order of translation. Again, it is difficult to determine exactly which alphabet, or combination thereof, might be employed.

I think what we need is a "Rosetta Sword" !!!

In the case of many Italian blades from Brescian regions, with makers Caino and Picinino in particular, there were alphabetic letters used in groupings, but often in repetitive fashion, and reductive in letters removed progressively in some cases. Also, often second lines were using the same letters though shuffled into anagram style groupings.

Obviously this practice defied any tangible acronym decoding, and suggests the letters may have been given numeric or other values or used in symbolic sequencing. The truth remains unknown. What is known is that the practice seems to have been employed in other centers, and in particular may have been filtered either to or from Spain.
While it is tempting to note that Germany certainly must have copied this practice in kind, as of course they spuriously used many Spanish and Italian markings and motif...it is important to recall that this mysterious practice seems present in degree in Frankish weapons earlier and somewhat on these English swords.

A remaining and possibly significant factor is that of the Kabbalah, and the use of gemetria, that is the use of alphabet characters with numeric value and various symbolism representing Kabbalistic dogma and esoterica.
It seems as I understand that the use of acronyms in Hebrew were often pronounced in some degree as words.

Though not suggesting that this particular blade, nor the inscriptions on the others mentioned might be associated to Kabbalist words or phrases, it is worthy to note as possible source of influence.

Again, thank you for adding this Lee,

Best regards,
Jim

[Lee]

Courtesy of a new member, here is a much less polluted link to the same inquiry that includes progress to date!

[Ian]

Thanks Lee. An interesting observation that these swords were distributed widely in Europe and possibly had a single manufacturing source/workshop. That may explain why the particular script has proved so elusive to identify--where was this purported workshop?

Mysterious mystical swords indeed.

Ian.

[Jim McDougall]

thanks

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I think it also peculiar that the M is probably upside down.

I think a grouping of all the excavated swords in this broad category would enhance our knowledge immensely. Unfortunately I have a hotel and 17 businesses to run not to mention a new railway to construct. Perhaps someone from our panel of experts could attempt this task...? I suggest the right location could be on the European...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ian]

Given the extensive European content that has appeared in this thread, I have copied it from the Ethnographic Forum to the European Armoury as well. Lee, Jim, Ibrahiim and others have made some very intriguing observations and posted several links that may be of interest.

Ian.

[Jim McDougall]

This was a good move to bring this thread and the concurrent thread titled 'odd sword' to the European forum given the subject matter, which decidedly focuses on these European blades and their inscriptions.

At this point I think it is important to consider some of the perspective which is important in approaching this most arcane and often even occult related subject matter with the understanding of these curious inscriptions and their ever elusive meanings. The term 'polluted' pertaining to some references to the descriptions and references to these indeed 'mysterious' inscriptions perhaps well describes the unfortunate posture often taken toward much of the investigation and research concerning these kinds of topics.

Descriptions and news pertaining to old swords and these 'mysterious ' inscriptions are of course rendered sensationally in the media, and allude to all manner of sometimes almost bizarre notions and suggestions. Most academic and scholarly works typically avoid including the terms magic or occult in discussing inscriptions on blades such as these. However, most of these same mediums will recognize the reference to many of these inscriptions and acrostics in various letters and groupings as 'sacerdotal' or religious invocations.

Indeed, many of these apparent groupings of letters and sometimes included symbols or devices, particularly crosses, have been compellingly revealed to have been just that, religiously oriented. This is of course clearly reminiscent and profoundly associated with the crusades and the fact that swords and weaponry were most often closely associated with and directly connected to the Church.

However these practices of using letters in acrostic groupings, as well as the use of symbolic devices has been held to have roots in the pagan use of runes and invocations to their gods for strength and protection in battle.

While this would of course well explain the well known and plausibly suggested use of these inscriptions from religious standpoint, it is important to note that in the Middle Ages, as suggested in one article within the link Lee noted, there were few who would differentiate between religion, science and magic.

The well known sciences of today had not yet been developed, and along with the well established fiber of religion, practices such as alchemy (later chemistry); astrology (later astronomy) and magic, strongly associated with superstition and other metaphysics fluourished.
The largely illiterate population while hugely uninformed on these of course, could very distinctly relate to symbols and devices.

Even blacksmithing and the forging of swords and weapons was considered magical, and these men were regarded with great caution though of course recognized as quite essential. It would seem quite natural that these weapons would temporally or in decoration be imbued with talismanic powers, whether religiously oriented or as noted, amalgamated with other occult or esoteric associations.


It is with these things in mind that I hope that members and readers here alike, might join together in looking further into our understanding of these particular blades in these two threads, as well as into the entirely fascinating study of the swords of these times.

While many often scoff at the idea of including occult or mystical matters in the study of weapons and their decoration and embellishment, in my view it is profoundly held that.....we do not need to believe in or approve of the beliefs or symbolic meanings being investigated, but it is absolutely essential that we try to understand what the people who made and used these weapons believed.

Best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

If I may begin to collect to Forum documents there are available in terms of these ancient swords and inscriptions starting with The Vlfberht Sword which from Wikipedia I QUOTE "Vlfberht or Ulfbehrt is a modern transcription of the inscription +VLFBERH+T, found on some Early Middle Ages Germanic swords of the 8th to 11th century. Swords so inscribed have been found in many parts of Europe, most numerously in Scandinavia. They are believed to originate from the Taunus region of Germany in what was the Frankish realm.

There are many variations of the inscription, including +VLFBERHT+ and +VLFBERH+T. The inscription is a Frankish personal name and became the basis of a trademark of sorts, used by multiple bladesmiths for several centuries.

In a 2008 paper, Anne Stalsberg, of the Museum of Natural History and Archaeology of Norway, argues that a blacksmith is unlikely to have been literate, and that the presence of crosses in the signature suggest an ecclesiastical or monastic origin. She discusses how the swords may have reached Scandinavia, suggesting smuggling, looting by Vikings, or as ransom for dignitaries captured by Vikings. Much of this work was re-presented (though uncredited to Stalsberg) in detail in the PBS Nova 2012 documentary, Secrets of the Viking Sword.

Most Vlfberht swords are of Oakeshott Type X form. They are forged from excellent steel with a very low content of sulfur and phosphorus and up to 1.1% carbon. This steel was most likely acquired through trade through the Volga trade route, which could have supplied ingots of the steel, obtained ultimately from central Asian cultures, who were producing crucible steel to emulate the famous wootz steel of India.

A 2012 documentary, Secrets of the Viking Sword, showed a blacksmith who specializes in ancient techniques successfully create both a high-quality steel ingot and an inlaid Vlfberht sword from it."UNQUOTE.

It is noted that Anne Stalsberg stated that the blacksmith was unlikely to have been literate and that the material was imported possibly from Asia...This poses two difficulties; firstly in deciding if the blacksmith had made a mistake in the inscription and secondly that trying to tie a sword down to a particular workshop through analysis of the material would be much more difficult...when the materials were being drawn from far afield...i.e. not locally. I also find it interesting that Ann Stalsberg suggests a monastic link because of the crosses because if the swords were associated with a place of learning would not the letters be correct...at least at the time of going to print; so to speak? It would appear that the puzzle we run into in Ethnographic Weaopons these days associated with the "whats in a word" syndrome was as common then as it is now...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

Let me bring here some considerations of a scholar about inscriptions as found in tapestries, as those depicting scenes relating the discoveries period (circa 1500). Somehow its essence may be applied to weapons inscriptions ... i guess
"The phenomenom of decorative inscriptions may be circumscribed to three categories: Firstly, inscriptions composed by purely fantasist letters; cufic characters, pseudo-greek, pseudo-hebraic or cabalistic signs. Secondly, inscriptions composed by real characters but not forming legible words or phrases. In these cases, the intention is, as in the first category, to accentuate the exotic character of the represented figures. And thirdly, inscriptions that, although with a decorative character, allow for the recognition of a certain sense, a certain significate; it is in such circumstance that one may find signatures or other details relative to the genesis of the work. In these inscriptions, the legible parts may be inserted in two lines of letters which goal is purely decorative and don't have any comprehensible sense. "



-

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Essentially tapestries were the news or noticeboards of the day, however, anyone with the skills could render a completely fictional character real ...from myth and legend. See the tapestry of the fictional King Arthur at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur

Trying to deduce what is meant on blade inscriptions is quite interesting since it is not known if the deliberate mistakes (if indeed they are mistakes) were introduced by the sword maker/engraver or insisted upon by the sword owner...or a total error?

If in the case of a Monastic order being involved ... to oversee the correctness of the inscription or possibly as the manufacturer of the swords which in their own right were religious icons in many cases... (it is assumed there was some collusion because of the + ) the religious cross often at both ends of the inscription...e.g +VLFBERHT+) how or why were simple mistakes made in the spelling? Perhaps the assumption that religious orders were involved is in fact wrong?

The spelling mistakes therefor could have been simply the result of the blacksmith being illiterate....or he was simply following the orders of the person commissioning the weapon...Perhaps equally illiterate?

There is of course the other possibility that the mistakes were planned and deliberate.


There is one peculiar aspect of medieval swords which does intrigue...the seemingly across the board idea of chucking ones sword into a lake or river...in a sort of ritual and one which is apparent in legends like the one I opened with at para 1; The Arthurian Legend.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

As an easy reference I have a stack of details best rendered for readers here and for Library. These are key Oakshot styles and show some blade mark details and inscriptions. Some are excavated and others fished out of rivers or lakes... This site will take you to any of the detailed sites below placed for reference only...See Read more: http://sword-site.com/thread/118/oak...#ixzz3iROdzmRn

************************************************** **************
Oakeshot Sword Type X : sword-site.com/thread/118/oakeshott-type-records-medieval-sword

Oakeshot Sword Type Xa : sword-site.com/thread/123/oakeshott-type-records-medieval-sword

Oakeshot Sword Type XI - XIa : sword-site.com/thread/126/oakeshott-type-records-medieval-sword

Oakeshot Sword Type XII : sword-site.com/thread/127/oakeshott-type-records-medieval-sword

Oakeshot Sword Type XIIa: sword-site.com/thread/128/oakeshott-type-records-medieval-sword

Oakeshot Sword Type XIII - XIIIb : sword-site.com/thread/152/oakeshott-xiiib-records-medieval-sword

Oakeshot Sword Type XIV : sword-site.com/thread/159/oakeshott-type-records-medieval-sword

Oakeshot Sword Type XV - XVa : sword-site.com/thread/166/oakeshott-type-records-medieval-sword

Oakeshot Sword Type XVI - XVIa: sword-site.com/thread/167/oakeshott-type-records-medieval-sword

Oakeshot Sword Type XVII : sword-site.com/thread/175/oakeshott-type-records-medieval-sword

Oakeshot Sword Type XVIII - XVIIIa : sword-site.com/thread/183/oakeshott-xviii-xviiia-records-medieval

Oakeshot Sword Type XIX : sword-site.com/thread/187/oakeshott-type-records-medieval-sword

Oakeshot Sword Type XX - XXa : sword-site.com/thread/200/oakeshott-type-records-medieval-sword

Oakeshot Sword Type XXI - XXII : sword-site.com/thread/204/oakeshott-type-records-medieval-sword

************************************************** ***************
Read more: http://sword-site.com/thread/118/oak...#ixzz3iROdzmRn

[Jim McDougall]

I think this is a remarkably fascinating aspect of these medieval swords, from the earliest inscriptions and inlaid names etc of earlier examples to the later copies and commemorative style applications. It is one of the most esoteric factions of arms study, and probably one of the least attended to and most avoided academically, due primarily to the highly subjective nature of the subject matter.

While most interested in these early swords likely pursue their own degree of study on these esoteric topics quite privately, and as can be seen here, most typically avoid any open discussion on them. There are of course varied studies which have been undertaken by some of the key figures in arms scholarship, but these are seemingly stalled at point, and are seldom ever brought into any sort of furthering or advancement condition .

Here we have the British Museum asking for ideas on discovering the meaning of the inscription on this sword, as if it was a new find. In reality, this is just one of a number of swords found in the River Witham, and each with similar cryptic inscriptions, and these finds go back to 1788 as well as through the 19th century. When Oakeshott wrote his seminal work "The Archaeology of Weapons" in 1960, there was not much more perspective on these inscriptions than today. While even then, he and others could recognize many of the religious invocations and may of the symbols and devices, there is virtually zero advancement among arms scholarship with respect to the presence of magical and occult symbolism in these kinds of inscriptions.

I consider this a very regrettable circumstance reflecting the situation in the study of arms, but one becoming more prevalent as general attitudes with political correctness issues affecting museums and such holdings, and the trend toward more casual interaction in arms oriented venues such as forums. I write with results of my seemingly relentless researching on these fascinating subjects, and always hope there will be others who share this enthusiasm to advance the disposition of our collective knowledge on them.
I always appreciate the well reasoned and learned entries of Fernando in many entries on these subjects, as well as the continued enthusiasm and tenacity of Ibrahiim in his efforts to create viable discussions here.

While I have little expectation that further discourse will ensue on this sword or the topic in general, I wanted to enter another soliloquy to express my personal view on these matters. I would have very much welcomed ideas or perspectives on the curious inscriptions seen on this sword and others like it on these pages, but clearly these are not forthcoming. Personally, there have been some good observations.......such as the 'M' which is indeed upside down.....the nature of some of the characters which seem aesthetically aligned toward magical alphabets, as well as the potential for numeric values even Hebrew lettering. All of these certainly worth review and discussion.
My research has been intense and gets more intriguing as I learn more on these topics, and has been so since I was first inspired by this post. I hope others have been equally moved even if we do not see such entries here, as even if we cannot solve this mystery wholly, the study of it will certainly benefit those of us who find this fascinating.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think this is a remarkably fascinating aspect of these medieval swords, from the earliest inscriptions and inlaid names etc of earlier examples to the later copies and commemorative style applications. It is one of the most esoteric factions of arms study, and probably one of the least attended to and most avoided academically, due primarily to the highly subjective nature of the subject matter.

While most interested in these early swords likely pursue their own degree of study on these esoteric topics quite privately, and as can be seen here, most typically avoid any open discussion on them. There are of course varied studies which have been undertaken by some of the key figures in arms scholarship, but these are seemingly stalled at point, and are seldom ever brought into any sort of furthering or advancement condition .

Here we have the British Museum asking for ideas on discovering the meaning of the inscription on this sword, as if it was a new find. In reality, this is just one of a number of swords found in the River Witham, and each with similar cryptic inscriptions, and these finds go back to 1788 as well as through the 19th century. When Oakeshott wrote his seminal work "The Archaeology of Weapons" in 1960, there was not much more perspective on these inscriptions than today. While even then, he and others could recognize many of the religious invocations and may of the symbols and devices, there is virtually zero advancement among arms scholarship with respect to the presence of magical and occult symbolism in these kinds of inscriptions.

I consider this a very regrettable circumstance reflecting the situation in the study of arms, but one becoming more prevalent as general attitudes with political correctness issues affecting museums and such holdings, and the trend toward more casual interaction in arms oriented venues such as forums. I write with results of my seemingly relentless researching on these fascinating subjects, and always hope there will be others who share this enthusiasm to advance the disposition of our collective knowledge on them.
I always appreciate the well reasoned and learned entries of Fernando in many entries on these subjects, as well as the continued enthusiasm and tenacity of Ibrahiim in his efforts to create viable discussions here.

While I have little expectation that further discourse will ensue on this sword or the topic in general, I wanted to enter another soliloquy to express my personal view on these matters. I would have very much welcomed ideas or perspectives on the curious inscriptions seen on this sword and others like it on these pages, but clearly these are not forthcoming. Personally, there have been some good observations.......such as the 'M' which is indeed upside down.....the nature of some of the characters which seem aesthetically aligned toward magical alphabets, as well as the potential for numeric values even Hebrew lettering. All of these certainly worth review and discussion.
My research has been intense and gets more intriguing as I learn more on these topics, and has been so since I was first inspired by this post. I hope others have been equally moved even if we do not see such entries here, as even if we cannot solve this mystery wholly, the study of it will certainly benefit those of us who find this fascinating.

Salaams Jim, Thank you for your kind words and observations on this very important subject. I would add that if I was concocting a syllabus upon European Ethnographic Arms and Armour this entire sector would command a large part of the "foundation course" I can think of no more important an area than the Mediaeval period in this regard. The inscriptions on blades takes on another dimension and undoing the puzzle is a fascinating study ..

This is a journey back through time and without waxing lyrical it soars through history and mythical legendary time zones until it disappears into the realms of magic and mystique..Yet it is there that the journey began and in some ways that we seek here at Forum..(where I think we owe the subject a fair hearing)...I find it amazing that Arthurian legend was in fact legend and truth mixed and hundreds of years after Excalibur it was still the tradition to throw ones sword...often named.... into the deepest pool.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Lee]

Thank you gentlemen, I always enjoy discussions about medieval swords. Always.

There were a couple of links to offprints of worthwhile articles in Gladius on the subject of inscriptions on European medieval swords:

How to make swords talk...

Christian Invocation Inscriptions...

[Hotspur]

Thoughts about the inscription from others

Some think it may say, in ancient Welsh, "No Cover shall be over me." as though it was never meant to be scabarded, always out and ready to fight.
From the discussion at various links.


Interesting

Not unlike what we see of later terms such as
"No me saques sin razon; no me enbaines sin honor"
"Draw me not without reason; sheath me not without honor"

It is also not unlike some biblical scripture, which is what many are considering. Gloat not over me my enemy, etc

Cheers

GC

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Thoughts about the inscription from others

Some think it may say, in ancient Welsh, "No Cover shall be over me." as though it was never meant to be scabarded, always out and ready to fight.
From the discussion at various links.


Interesting

Not unlike what we see of later terms such as
"No me saques sin razon; no me enbaines sin honor"
"Draw me not without reason; sheath me not without honor"

It is also not unlike some biblical scripture, which is what many are considering. Gloat not over me my enemy, etc

Cheers

GC

Salaams Hotspur ...Yes it could be old Welsh but...as the report goes on to say...there is more to this than meets the eye.

Please see http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2015/08/can...ear-old-sword/

For example the W from one persons perspective wrote..


Quote ''Any symbology that might appear on that side is very important. From an alphabet perspective, I was immediately struck by the inclusion of the letter W as it wasn’t in general use in that form until some point during the 14th century when it began shifting from begin written as the the digraph to being written as the ligature more frequently as the 15th and 16th centuries approached. I don’t think I would have stopped if it weren’t in the form it is in. In the early versions of the W ligature it is most commonly written as two V’s whose legs cross over each other. Time and scribal laziness eventually eliminate the crossed sections for ease of writing. This particular W letter form has an apex that is half the height of the arms of the W letter suggesting that the engraving was added nearer the 15 or 16th century. It is important to note that the W letter form is used natively in: German, Dutch, English, Welsh, Polish, Walloon and Maltese.

Most romance languages including the Latin of the day did not use the W.
One particularly interesting note, from Marc van Hasselt of Utrecht University’s Hastatus Heritage Consultancy, explained how similar swords have been found all over Europe, bearing similarly inscrutable phrases. According to Hasselt, it seems the “most likely” that the inscriptions are in Latin, though:

Using the excellent research by Thomas Wagner and John Worley, an image of a hugely successful medieval workshop was created, making ‘magical’ swords for the elite. The swords themselves are of a high quality, but what most catches the eye are the inscriptions. Both their mysterious contents and the similarities in the lettering are striking. A sword from Sweden might use the same slightly curved X as the River Witham sword. A sword currently in Berlin has an I-S contraction also used on a sword found in the Netherlands. These similarities go so far as to suggest the same hand in making the inscriptions.

However, their contents are still a mystery, regardless of their origins".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Hotspur]

Hello Ibrahiim

I think I post on the train of thought that a simple phrase the most likely translation we will find.

I agree with Lee on his impression that the sword is not unlikely to be of a later century. While Oakeshott lists this sword as a type X, it is truly as easily placed in a type XVI category, or even a tweener of a XIV, or XVII for that matter. I believe it is in Oakeshott's later book (Age of Chivalry) he starts to question his own earlier categorizing and dating. I'll be honest, I own only his first title and Records, on which all now seem to attribute "truth" to this particular sword. I look at this sword and see it easily 14th if not even 15th century work.

My own focus of swords is a mere few decades of early modern swords, and further narrowed to eagle pommel swords of the US market. As many times as types and origins of those have been pigeonholed, not just trends but reuse of favored styles often need reassessment.

As to prettier and emblazoned swords belonging to the rich and famous, of course. A peasant grade sword in England during the XIVth century could be had for a few weeks wages if a freeman. Also by that time, barrels of blades imported, manifested and registered and taxed in the port of London. So many arms and armour imported into England that there was concern and laws made restricting trade by the XVth century. In that regard, I see no great mystery that a sword found in an English river (inscribed or not) mirrors swords found on the continent.

Cheers

GC

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Hello Ibrahiim

I think I post on the train of thought that a simple phrase the most likely translation we will find.

I agree with Lee on his impression that the sword is not unlikely to be of a later century. While Oakeshott lists this sword as a type X, it is truly as easily placed in a type XVI category, or even a tweener of a XIV, or XVII for that matter. I believe it is in Oakeshott's later book (Age of Chivalry) he starts to question his own earlier categorizing and dating. I'll be honest, I own only his first title and Records, on which all now seem to attribute "truth" to this particular sword. I look at this sword and see it easily 14th if not even 15th century work.

My own focus of swords is a mere few decades of early modern swords, and further narrowed to eagle pommel swords of the US market. As many times as types and origins of those have been pigeonholed, not just trends but reuse of favored styles often need reassessment.

As to prettier and emblazoned swords belonging to the rich and famous, of course. A peasant grade sword in England during the XIVth century could be had for a few weeks wages if a freeman. Also by that time, barrels of blades imported, manifested and registered and taxed in the port of London. So many arms and armour imported into England that there was concern and laws made restricting trade by the XVth century. In that regard, I see no great mystery that a sword found in an English river (inscribed or not) mirrors swords found on the continent.

Cheers

GC

Yes I agree it could be of a later century as detailed in my previous post in particular regarding the W detail...in paragraph 1 and 2 and I also line up with the possibility of it being linked to swords found on the continent in paragraph 3... noted in my previous post taken mainly from the website http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2015/08/can...ear-old-sword/

[Hotspur]

Yes, so we are agreeing with much of what is posted, reposted and reposted across the net this past month or so with the same links posted over and over.

Cheers

GC

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Yes, so we are agreeing with much of what is posted, reposted and reposted across the net this past month or so with the same links posted over and over.

Cheers

GC

Oh which link was that ...I may have missed it?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all... Another sword comes to hand...or view at http://siberiantimes.com/science/cas...-the-terrible/

Members are urged to consider this one please.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Sword of Ivan the Terrible or....?

Salaams all...On rereading Heraldic Symbols I am reminded of the shorthand nature of that entire structure but I am also inclined to use the same analogy on blade inscriptions... Mediaeval Shorthand. What I find amazing(and there are many amazing twists with these blades ) is that there appears to be a network; perhaps a monastic linkage across vast regions where it seems sword-makers possibly attached or part of the clergy moved with freedom practicing their art-form ..was this a way of funding a particular religious body?...was this done to fund religious visits/pilgrimages?...or was the work done in different countries and regions by sometimes the same craftsman purely a co incidental affair?...I doubt the latter.

Since I harp on about shorthand here is what the report at reference says about the script...

Quote"The main inscription reads: N[omine] M[atris] N[ostri] S[alva]t[ORis] Et[eRni] D[omini] S[alvatoRis] E[teRni], with an additional one on the same side of the blade saying C[hRis]t[us] Ih[esus] C[hRis]t[us]. This means:'In the name of the mother of our saviour eternal, eternal Lord and Saviour. Christ Jesus Christ.'

The inscription on the reverse side is harder to read, but the first word 'NOMENE' - clearly seen - helps reconstruct the rest as 'N[omine] O[mnipotentis]. M[ateR]. E[teRni] N[omin]e', which means 'In the name of the Almighty. The Mother of God. In the name of Eternal".Unquote.


Applying that key to the project sword here at #3 gives a similar string that will decode to illustrate a religious incantation or saying which you can all have a go at...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Another sword to consider from https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...19569857056750

Quote"Sword from Victoria & Albert Museum London, UK\1250-1300 England
Sword, the long double-edged blade constructed of two parallel pattern welded rods to give a shallow concave medial fuller which is decorated with an inlaid talismanic inscription in latten letters on both sides. The hilt no longer survives, only the tapering tang which is hammer welded to a globular, roughly hammered disc-shaped pommel with bevelled edges. The plain quillon is straight with circular section terminals flaring slightly outwards at the tips.
Place of Origin
England, Britain (made)
Date
1250-1300 (made)
Artist/maker
Unknown (production)
Materials and Techniques
Steel, pattern welded and inlaid with latten
Marks and inscriptions
'+N.C.R.O.X.W(?).R.E.F.-'
'+N E D A S E D N G R E D A-'
Dimensions
Length: 104.3 cm whole, Length: 16.3 cm hilt, Length: 88.0 cm blade, Width: 18.5 cm quillons, Depth: 3.8 cm pommel, Width: 5.8 cm top of blade, Weight: 0.94 kg
Object history note
This sword was found in Whittlesea Mere, Cambridgeshire, in the 1840s (in the same vicinity as the Ramsey Abbey incense boat M.269-1923). It was first loaned to the Museum in 1951 by Mr George H. Bird. The original lender has died and all attempts to contact the family have been unsuccessful. The sword was written on in 2002.
Historical context note
Swords have always been high status objects used as symbols of authority as well as for warfare and sport. Swords often accompanied a warrior to his grave. This style of sword derived from the broad straight swords of the Celts and Vikings, consisting of a long, two-sided blade balanced by a pronounced pommel and straight quillons (cross-bars on the hilt) to guard the hand, with a grip of wood bound with leather or cord. No trace of the grip on this sword remains, only the core steel tang reaching to the pommel.
The medieval sword was at first designed as a cutting weapon but by around 1300, when this sword was made, narrower, pointed blades emerge in order to pierce the new plate armours. The medieval knight used a shield or armour for defence so that swords were designed almost entirely for offence to be wielded one-handed on horseback. Longer grips emerged after 1250 so that the sword could be held with two hands in foot combat and the quillons started to curve towards the blade as a form of defence for catching an opponent's blade. The earlier wheel shaped pommels were also replaced conical or oval ones.
Swords are frequently portrayed in manuscripts making it possible to trace their evolution after about 1250. The armouries in Dresden and Vienna contain many medieval swords in excellent condition. Battlefields are a disappointing source for the discovery of swords implying that swords were highly prized and expensive.
Descriptive line
Sword with straight quillons and a wheel-shaped pommel, English, 1250-1300, recovered from Whittlesea Mere, Cambridgeshire in the 1840s". Unquote.