Swords Final Selection

[Mark]

Post here your suggestions and comments on the final list of pieces for the Section, as it solidifies.

I suggest not posting here the discussion during the selection process itself, which I expect will be far-ranging and extensive. The idea for this thread would be to put up a proposed line-up, then once it has been commented upon & modified through discussion "out there" in other threads, the next version be posted here, and so forth. This way everyone can see quickly what the current line-up actually is, and how it is developing, without having to fish it out of the longer threads.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Okay, after contributions have started we have already three contributors and 19 entires as can be viewed here.

I hope you folks don't start counting, but rather throw in what you have best.
You are the knowledgeable ones

Remember to send pictures and descriptions according to the system in the link above and also the insurance value per item.
Thanks

[Antonio Cejunior]

Gentlemen,

Mark Bowditch came to Macau and I believe you all have read his most benevolent review of his visit. The fact is that on this part of the preparation, I have not been able to upload all swords and descriptions as yet.

Why? you may ask. Well, first because I did not imagine your great generosity and civic attitude.

Then it is a matter of a day having 24 hours and I barely sleep 4 hours a night.

Please rest assured that no one is more committed to bring the entire fleet to its destination. Yup, I spoke of a fleet. I am presently, on the Macau side, coordinating every single part of the different sections alone and with very hard negotiations going on.

Because things may change for the better, I am asking you to be aware that although exhausted, I am fully aware of the timings and so forth.
I will talk to Mark today, the 12th of December and Mark will hopefully post something for everyone to read.
I would just like to ask you to wait for Mark to place the result of my talk with him today.

Thanks you for your understanding and rest assured that it is now inside logistics and time.
Antonio

[Mark]

Hi everyone,

I just spoke with Antonio. We have decided to shoot for Dec. 16/17 to have a preliminary selection for the section pieces. I say preliminary because there is the possiblity of getting more exhibition space, but this needs to be explored further in terms of logistics and cost (since it would have to be renovated to contain the necessary cases, etc.). So, the thing to do is to put together the set of 35 or so pieces that everyone was planning on, but also to include perhaps 10 more in case the extra space can be gotten.

So, the hour of decision has come!

An important aspect of establishing the final selections is also the descriptions and final (insurance) photographs. There has been a huge response from you guys! I think that around 120 pieces have been contributed. What I suggest be done within this Dec. 16/17 timeframe is as the selections are made, the particular contributor of the piece make sure that the description of the piece is complete and in the correct format for easy uploading to the final section page. With so many pieces it can take an enormous amount of time to edit and re-format even small amounts of text. Plus, having pictures of a good quality resolution are necessary in order to get the insurance, and since you guys have the pieces, you need to take (or have taken) the pictures. I know I said before that quality wasn't necessary at this stage, but I partly was thinking of the initial suggestion stage, and partly had not been thinking about the insurance issue. I need to retake pictures of several of my own pieces, actually.

Here is a format for the minumum information needed for the description:

{ID#} {blade type, e.g., Barong, Kris, Talibon, etc.}, {Place/culture of Origin, e.g., Moro/Luzan/Visaya/Bogabo, etc.}, {date (even generally, such as "Mid-18th C," or "Early 20th C.)}; blade length: {cm (inches)}, overall length: {cm (inches)}. {Brief description, if thought necessary}.

This is the format we have used in the Cont. SEA section, and we didn't get complaints. Here are two examples:

9MIB. Dha-lwe, Myanmar (Burma), late 19th or early 20th C.; blade length: 31.7 cm (12.5 inches), overall length: 83.8 cm (33 inches).

IAG 01 Burmese or Thai dha from the mid-19th C. in the Shan style. Hilt is a segment of bamboo with a rich golden patina, flanked by a silver ferrule and a brass cap. The blade has a heavy patina and may be laminated. Decorations along the back edge of the blade resemble motifs on modern Thai swords.
Length in scabbard:
Length of sword overall:
Length of blade:
Length of handle:

Some of the decriptions we have are a bit too long, I think. IMO Ian's that I gave above is about right, though we have since decided just to have blade and overall lengths. I need to add them to mine, as you can see. They should be one or two sentences, saying what might be an unusual, or a significant, feature, or perhaps describing a material or technique used. Things like "An example of the classic form of a kris, made for a datu. Silver mountings, with a blade of folded steel." Think of a figure caption in a book, and remember that from a space point of view it will be three times the length, as it will also be in Portuguese and Chinese.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Gentlemen,

Following yesterday's Mark Bowditch post just above this one, here is more information.

1. ABOUT FILLING OUT THE SPECIFICATIONS

I have updated a little bit more according to my time availability. Please check http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...ntributors.htm and click refresh.

There has been different forms of approach which led me to very tiring editing
when my time could be used in other things.

Please finish your descriptions Specs asap. Do not use abbreviations such as 20 c. It should be 20th. century.

These are two good examples of what I consider final specifications, both with or without information, depending on the cases:

Example 1:
RB1
Mindanao Moro Panabas. Moro Wars turn of the century.
Shows battle damage on the cutting edge and a bullet wound on the face of the blade. A testimony to the strength of laminated steel. Rattan wrapping with finer woven rattan bands above; simple carving at the pommell
Overall length: 65 cm
Blade length: 29 cm
Handle length: 33 cm
Scabbard length: no scabbard

Example 2:
BARONG.
Samal tribe, Sulu Archipelago, Southern Philippines. Belonged to datu nobility and is battle piece. It has a silver ferrule. Pommel is small and made out of fossil elephant molar (to ward off evil influences during battle) and thus makes this a rare type of barong.
Date: Late 19th-early 20th Century
Overall: 60cm
Blade: 42.5cm
Hilt: 18cm
Scabbard: none

What are the main differences?

Mainly the date. I am more in favor of a description immediately followed by date.
Meaning:
Kris. 19th. century.
Place of origin, etc.
Measurements:
================================================== ===

2. ABOUT INSURANCE
I have all the insurance values, but will upload all of them after the selection rather than now.

3. VOLUNTEER ANYONE?
Once the pre-selection and selection has been finalized, there is no turning back. I will keep a back up page but will create a final page with all the selected items that will need a criteria to be grouped.
Once this is grouped I would need a volunteer with word doc. to please copy all the descriptions, in the sequence order of the selection by group, paste them in notepad to remove all the html codes from the web page and then again copy and paste and place bolds where they were.
This is the preparation for the final work for the catalogue.
I think this is also something very interesting and civic. Members participating in the editorial process. This is something that can be fantastic.

4. SPACE AND PRE-SELECTION

As Mark has mentioned, we may eventually be able to have more space.
See the difference between



and



It depends on a couple of things among which the budget to build more display cases and other issues that I am not able to disclose. However if this is possible will also allow for a more extensive display, and also for the appearance of a "bible" on Philippines swords as well as Thai and Laos swords plus others. I don't want to make any promises.

4. GLOSSARY
Based on final selection, I think it is imperative to assist the viewer by creating a glossary of terms. What is Visayan? What is Maranao tribe?
So a glossary should be divided into:
a. sword terms and types
b. tribal descriptions
c. all other descriptions that can be part of systhemized glossary.

5. ARTICLE ON PHILIPPINES SWORDS
Should be ready by 22 of January and sent to me. It should be based on an overall approach on the ethno-geography of the Phillipines and its history and societye/societies and zoom into swords.

This is all for now gentlemen. Please rush

Best to all.
Antonio

[Antonio Cejunior]

Hi everyone,

I'm almost done with the updates. Only one contributor missing the descriptions.
Today is December 15 my morning and we still have two days to go as far as your time is concerned, so it will be ready on time.

SUGGESTIONS

1. I suggest a pre-selection in which swords (I do privilege swords as first choice for technical display reasons, as well as catalog photographs reasons and finally because all sections will be mainly concentrated on swords) should be pre-selected by groups-shapes such as

KRIS
The picture below is just an example.



where you should name your preferences by selecting the sword's reference number.

Barong



And so forth and on, by groups.

A second group of selected weapons should be also performed as stand-by group for the possible extension of the space.

The Final selection should result in, numbering the swords for the catalog this way. (let us start with Kris as an example and the references are just examples taken at random):

1 (JCA8)
2 (RZ1)
3 (BP2)

This means I will then know the final sequence and grouping, as well as the owner of the sword in the new numbering and so forth. This kind of identification is of paramount importance, for which reason, when we reach that phase, there can be no mistakes

The bold 1 means it will be the Philippines Section opening sword of the Kris sub-section.
My other suggestion is that the lowest number 1 should be attributed to the oldest chosen sword or, cumulatively, to the same region/province as sword 2 and so forth.

This of course applies to all types of swords grouped by shapes/names.
I know the names issue can be controversial, but we are here to solve problems together, not to raise them . Think of the public and combine the public, the exhibition grouping and the catalogue which should make all the sense by seeing all the groupings.

NORMALIZATION OF NOMENCLATURES
Naming of the swords can be complicated, but I feel they must be distinguished and in his article or in the Glossary mentioned in the post before this one, Federico should make an explanation on this.
Philippines history is another issue that is of the utmost importance, although should be a brief resume and a reference to other books provided for those interested.

DISPLAY AND SPEARS
My role is not a pleasant one. If I were able to take decisions and manage the budget, all weapons would be exhibited.
I would like to state here once and forever, that every contributor is worth the Museum's and my personal gratitude and admiration. But a spear that is between 1.60 m to 1.80 m if displayed vertically, will have the tip quite far away from the viewer's eye, because the display cases are not levelled with the ground. On the other hand they pose a problem shipping. The third issue is that we can only afford one single picture per sword/weapon in most cases, which means that the photograph for the catalogue will need to be of superb quality. As no other Section is displaying spears, I think, although they exist in all cultures, we should allow the space that the spears occupy to display a couple more of swords.

I hate this role, but I am very familiar with the space and display techniques require special lighting that cannot be repeated as it was done for 18 swords in the Masters of Fire Exhibition display for it would be an incalculable price.

Therefore we will have to bear in mind the angles of lighting and so forth.

Please do not hesitate in placing any questions you have. But please place it here for everyone to see.

Thanks very much.
Mark: yep, imperative, not imperious or imperial thanks.

[Battara]

Antonio,

you have an email from me.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Battara

Antonio,

you have an email from me.

Got it Battara. Salamat-poo, Kaibigan

[Antonio Cejunior]

Greetings everyone,

Apart from Federico Malibago's unavailability in filling all of his entries, announced by him in good time, the final upload has been concluded and can be seen here.
Please click refresh and wait for the download of all pictures referring to 125 entries.

Superb collaboration from everyone. Thank you very much.
Now please view and take your notes in preparation for voting.
I have sent emails long ago to those who should be voting.
It must be either 3 or 5 people.

Now Mark should be setting up the voting mechanism for Saturday pre-selection.

Best regards,
Antonio

[Battara]

Just in case some of us are a little thicker than others ( ) it might be a good idea to resend those emails to remind the voters who they are.


Also, walang anuman, Antonio.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Battara

Just in case some of us are a little thicker than others ( ) it might be a good idea to resend those emails to remind the voters who they are.


Also, walang anuman, Antonio.

Kumusta-ka poo, Battara
Mabuti?

I don't think anybody is thick.
Here's what I'm going to do. I will announce the voters and will post them here.
I will be a non-voting member of the selection group.
Come on, every single one of you is a superb human being. I just have to go and check out to whom I emailed and announce it publically. The reason is that this is much fairer. It is not a beauty contest, it is not electing Mr. Contributor, it is pre-selecting swords. For reasons of breaking any possible draw in votes, selection members should be either 3 or 5.
Remember, pre-selection day will be December 17 US time. That allows me to find the email and announce it and will ask the first voter to make it as a poll type, if that is possible at all.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Hi everyone

This announcement should have been made by Mark Bowditch, but I found out that he is with a heavy cold in bed, so I will make the announcement.
The three selected members for voting the pre-selection proceedings are:
Fred Malibago
Jose Albovias
Rick Bates
The above selected three contributors as members of the pre-selection group is based on the following criteria:
a- Fred Malibago and Jose Albovias were already contributors before our splendid EEWS version.
b- Rick Bates as also the representative of EEWS who has so kindly and generously agreed to host this fantastic project.




I have been a member of many a selection committees in my life and the ratio of 3 members for seven contributors (excluding my single modest entry of an ignorant begginer) is very good. Usually (and this is not a competition) there are nine designers invited to analyze hundreds of entries. Here are just pictured six.

PRE-SELECTION CRITERIA
Let me state the criteria for the pre-selection:
- Selection by type of swords, ie., for the Kris group the selection group should pre-select in such way that what the group considers the top piece should be such and such entry code (see the contributors page for each sword's code). That means you are pre-selecting by intrinsic quality, period, region, tribe and so forth. If there are 25 Kris entries (just an example) we should have a result of 25 Kris graded from #1 to #25, being #1 the most representative and #25 the most common. (No offense meant to anyone as this is making the rules public).

-This should work for all the sword groups. The selection group will be the one to create the groups such as Barong, Kampilan, Tenegre and so forth, and no contributor will be ignored, independently of how swords are named.
-Pre-Selection can take two or three days until the group has agreed and tuned in the criteria and so forth.
-The pre-selection grading from #1 to whichever number, is a way to assess the grading according to all elements and also to allow for a final decision on the space available. In my own wish, I would have everything. Between wishful thinking and this superb turn-out we will be all making history, hopefully.

Now let's have the pre-selection group work. Thank you each and everyone of you gentlemen. It is amazing your enthusiasm and generosity. You are giving a lesson of civility, of brotherhood and of culture.

Again, let me phrase that this is not a competition, that here no one is winning or loosing, and in the end all will be winners as I think that our main collective goal is to have a great show.
Furthermore, since all the information about period, region, and so forth is available online, except for some of Fred Malibago's swords because of his lack of time, everything will be very clear

Thank you all once again.

[Rick]

I have made my list and sent it to my fellow selectors .
Hopefully we can make a three column list to cross check more easily .

Rick's ............. Federico's .................. Jose's

[Antonio Cejunior]

Great Rick,

It would be nice if Jose and Fred checked in for us all to see they have read the email informing them.

Thanks,

Antonio

[Battara]

Have read the emails - not sure I can get it in the format asked but will try. May take me a day or two but will do my worst.....er.....best.


Jose

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Battara

Have read the emails - not sure I can get it in the format asked but will try. May take me a day or two but will do my worst.....er.....best.


Jose

Copy and paste ?
Sorry I'm such a net kook ...

[Federico]

Schedule has finally cleared up, will be able to get everything in order, and sent in over the next few days.

Rick-just checked my email, and I dont have the list. Could you resend, thnx

Federico

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Federico

Schedule has finally cleared up, will be able to get everything in order, and sent in over the next few days.

Rick-just checked my email, and I dont have the list. Could you resend, thnx

Federico

Hi Fred,

Good

You have a couple of emails from very long ago.
Meantime, if you all wish to send me the list, it should be classified like this.

KRIS
#1 (ABC 1)
#2 (DEF 3)
and so forth.

Same for all other types of swords.

in the end you should all come up with the results posted here like this:

FEDERICO MALIBAGO JOSE ALBOVIAS RICK

KRIS SELECTION:

#1 (XYZ 3) (ABC 1) (XYZ 3)
#2 so and so.

Same for all other swords.I think this is clear and open for all swords.

Remember, the pre-selection is not definitive. It is ranking on the criteria mentioned above. I am still negotiating display space and I have high hopes that I will have good news for you all.

Best to everyone.
Thanks
Antonio

[Battara]

Have send the email list back to Rick and to Federico with my input.

[Mark]

Sorry for being silent here for a while. Events seem to have passed me by. I was suffering from what turned out to be a bad sinus infection for about a month and a half, and the last two weeks finally laid me out completely.

By the miracles of modern antibiotics, I am feeling much better, so let me know if there is anything that I can go to help you guys out.

[Rick]

Just sent you the list through the email function here .
You are no longer at earthlink ??

[Antonio Cejunior]

Gentlemen,

I have just informed the selection group that we were sucessful in negotiating enough space for sixty swords, which is a very great increase.
Now we will be waiting for the sixty swords selection.
Thank you everyone.

Best,

Antonio

[Battara]

W W!

Amazing! Good work Antonio! You make us proud.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Pardon me Jose,

You all are the ones who make us proud and are helping make history.
The civic generosity of all the contributors and the extra work of the selection group is a fantastic act of international civic and cultural cooperation that I dare say never attained before

Thank you to everyone. Let's wait for the results.
Please email them to me so I can upload them correctly.
Thank you.

[Rick]

bump

[Mark]

bump