Please help me identify a military saber

Jim McDougall · 3rd April 2015, 05:58 PM

Sancar, nothing wrong with romanticism!! it is what propels the joy of collecting and studying the history of these weapons....as we always say, these arms can indeed talk to us

The thing about weapons is that their 'working lives' often exceed the normally recognized period of many familiar forms.

In this case, the hilt is a stirrup hilt of a British M1796 light cavalry sabre, which were profusely produced and in many cases remained in service decades after they were superceded by another pattern hilt in 1829. The blade, as astutely noted by Ibrahiim, is of an also profusely produced type from Germany, specifically Solingen workshops.

I would note that as far as I have known, the notion of 'battlefield repair' is most unlikely with most arms. Crude repairs are typically the work of less than skilled crafters who are 'recycling' available components often in efforts to equip forces in developing circumstances. These kinds of 'hatchet point' German blades were among well known forms used in Arabian context through the 19th century and even into the 20th.

In Arabia, it is well known that sabres were used well into the 20th century, long after technically obsolete in most other places. That is where the 'romanticism' can become well placed even in 'reworked' pieces like this.That hilt began its life used in the sabre of a British cavalryman, then at some point ended up probably with broken or unserviceable blade, which was replaced in a small, relatively unskilled circumstance, and furbished with this commonly available blade form, to be used once again in some probably obscure tribal setting.
Who knows for sure what true history may be guarded within this sword?

Sancar · 4th April 2015, 04:22 PM

Thank you Jim and İbrahim for your answers.

I made further inquiries on other sword related forums and the general idea about this saber is that it is a German-made trade blade, possibly solingen, with a Prussian 1811 blücher version of the 1796 hilt. Three fullered trade blade is possibly from 18th century and later slightly reshaped in the tip to match the 1796 pattern and rehilted with 1811 blücher hilt.

This saber is bought from a flea market in İstanbul. So I deduce this might be an 18th century Prussian blade that was sold to Ottoman army around early 1900s. You can find a lot of 18th to 20th century European military blades from Europe in Istanbul antique shops.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th April 2015, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sancar

Thank you Jim and İbrahim for your answers.

I made further inquiries on other sword related forums and the general idea about this saber is that it is a German-made trade blade, possibly solingen, with a Prussian 1811 blücher version of the 1796 hilt. Three fullered trade blade is possibly from 18th century and later slightly reshaped in the tip to match the 1796 pattern and rehilted with 1811 blücher hilt.

This saber is bought from a flea market in İstanbul. So I deduce this might be an 18th century Prussian blade that was sold to Ottoman army around early 1900s. You can find a lot of 18th to 20th century European military blades from Europe in Istanbul antique shops.

Salaams Sancar,
Istanbul...That is quite interesting...as I am certain this blade originates in Germany but appears common on various hilts from Yemen etc ...Sanaa is where I many were rehilted. ...which is also no doubt within the range of Istanbul souk purchasing...

To give you examples of similar blades collected by Omani souk owners from Yemeni sources...see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=omani+swords in particular the last photo ..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 4th April 2015, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sancar

Thank you Jim and İbrahim for your answers.

I made further inquiries on other sword related forums and the general idea about this saber is that it is a German-made trade blade, possibly solingen, with a Prussian 1811 blücher version of the 1796 hilt. Three fullered trade blade is possibly from 18th century and later slightly reshaped in the tip to match the 1796 pattern and rehilted with 1811 blücher hilt.

This saber is bought from a flea market in İstanbul. So I deduce this might be an 18th century Prussian blade that was sold to Ottoman army around early 1900s. You can find a lot of 18th to 20th century European military blades from Europe in Istanbul antique shops.

Nicely done Sancar!!! The well known 'Blucher sabel' is the other option I overlooked, and does make even better sense. Very interesting context here, and well deduced. Thank you for sharing this here!

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

3rd April 2015, 05:58 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Sancar, nothing wrong with romanticism!! it is what propels the joy of collecting and studying the history of these weapons....as we always say, these arms can indeed talk to us The thing about weapons is that their 'working lives' often exceed the normally recognized period of many familiar forms. In this case, the hilt is a stirrup hilt of a British M1796 light cavalry sabre, which were profusely produced and in many cases remained in service decades after they were superceded by another pattern hilt in 1829. The blade, as astutely noted by Ibrahiim, is of an also profusely produced type from Germany, specifically Solingen workshops. I would note that as far as I have known, the notion of 'battlefield repair' is most unlikely with most arms. Crude repairs are typically the work of less than skilled crafters who are 'recycling' available components often in efforts to equip forces in developing circumstances. These kinds of 'hatchet point' German blades were among well known forms used in Arabian context through the 19th century and even into the 20th. In Arabia, it is well known that sabres were used well into the 20th century, long after technically obsolete in most other places. That is where the 'romanticism' can become well placed even in 'reworked' pieces like this.That hilt began its life used in the sabre of a British cavalryman, then at some point ended up probably with broken or unserviceable blade, which was replaced in a small, relatively unskilled circumstance, and furbished with this commonly available blade form, to be used once again in some probably obscure tribal setting. Who knows for sure what true history may be guarded within this sword?

4th April 2015, 04:22 PM	#2
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	Thank you Jim and İbrahim for your answers. I made further inquiries on other sword related forums and the general idea about this saber is that it is a German-made trade blade, possibly solingen, with a Prussian 1811 blücher version of the 1796 hilt. Three fullered trade blade is possibly from 18th century and later slightly reshaped in the tip to match the 1796 pattern and rehilted with 1811 blücher hilt. This saber is bought from a flea market in İstanbul. So I deduce this might be an 18th century Prussian blade that was sold to Ottoman army around early 1900s. You can find a lot of 18th to 20th century European military blades from Europe in Istanbul antique shops.