keris for comment

[A. G. Maisey]

David, do hope you will see fit to permit this response to Semar.

I have given considerable thought to his posts in this thread, and I am inclined to believe that although his pattern of communication may seem to be objectionable, it is not his nature that makes it so, but rather his difficulty with English.

Consider this:- it is very easy for you and me and a number of other regulars here to put up a question or a comment, but it is clear that for Semar this is not such an easy thing to do, so, instead of trying to say what he already knows, he goes on a fishing expedition.

I can understand this. I can use several languages, but I'm really only competent in one language apart from English, with the others, my writing would be on a par with Semar's English.

In short, I now feel that I was too hard on him, and that we all should be prepared to cut him a bit of slack. After all, he does make a considerable effort to take part in our discussions.

So Semar, please accept my apologies for the harsh manner in which I addressed you.

I would like to make a couple of additional minor comments.

For clarification:- I did not call you a Troll, what I said was this:-

"To my way of thinking this sort of behaviour comes dangerously close to the behaviour one would expect of a Troll."

There is a fine, but very important distinction between an accusation and a personal opinion in respect of a pattern of behaviour.

Yes, I agree with you that it is important to obtain as many opinions as possible about something when we wish to form a defensible opinion about said object, be it a keris or anything else.

However, when one has already obtained opinions from knowledgeable and experienced people, and when those opinions have been sufficient to permit one to form one's own opinion, it could be seen as somewhat contemptuous to seek a further opinion by presentation of extracted evidence (photographs) and in the absence of a presentation of the supporting evidence or argument that has permitted the formation of one's opinion, and then to reject that new opinion without a supporting argument.

As I have already said, I do not now believe that you intentionally set out to insult anybody, but I would most sincerely request you to in future post your queries as specific questions accompanied by whatever supporting evidence you may already have.

I am certain that if you follow this plan of action you will be much more successful in your increase of knowledge.

[semar]

hello David
I onley keris collector
"Keris for Comment" or "Keris for Sharing" is a common thread title for you
and yes thats the easy way for me because i not much of a expert in English writing i can speak it thats al and that i learn by my self So I have problems with the formulation of my questions and thats way i keep it simpel

and about you say (you think you know just it to draw out the opinions of others....only to disagree with those opinions because they don't jive with what you think you already know. ) i not agree with i acept what mister maisey but i tel him what other peopel say before maybe I'd have put it better to the point than tel it on my simpel way

so i hoop you understand it now a littel bite
so one last question But frankly, your posts often appear to me more as advertisements than trolling. I do hope this isn't the case. I can tolerate a troll more than i can a merchant in the our little temple... WHAT IS TROLLING

And mister maisey i wil try your advice if I can put it into the correct words


regards semar

[David]

Semar, i have send you a PM which will hopefully answer your questions.
Please continue if you will in this discussion on this keris.

[Henk]

Gentlemen,

On the end of the thread, i finally see the right conclussions. Semar is a serious collector who really wants to do one thing. Showing pictures of the keris he has collected and hoping we all enjoy the beauty of the keris.
As we all have an opinion about the item we collected, we all hope the opinion is true. Sometimes given by the seller or people in the neighbourhood of the seller. And maybe in the case of Semar, living on Java, getting opinions of neighbours and friends when he shows his latest aquisition.

Semar and that is obvious, has had no education in English language. Most of the Dutch people have had education in English language for several years on high school. But we also have a lot of Dutch people who have had not that education.

When i read what Semar has written i can clearly see, he is Dutch. I'm Dutch and with my knowledge of the English language i can understand what Semar means. Those for who English is the native language i'm sure they will understand maybe with some puzzling what he wrote. For those who have not English and Dutch as their native language i can understand they probably have difficulties to understand what Semar is writing.

I'm truly convinced Semar is not advertising, his only purpose is to let us enjoy the keris he is showing us.

While i'm writing this down i think in the English language. I'm able to do so because of my education in and use of the english language. And i'm aware my English isn't perfect. Please, don't ask me to write something down in French or Spanish. I simply cann't.

And please, do understand that some expressions are not understandable for a not native speaker.
A troll is, as far as i know, an evil forest ghost. With this knowledge i think, but i'm not sure, i can imagine what you mean.
For us calling somebody a troll, is an insult. Nothing else. Come to visit our country and call us a troll. Please tell me how many friends you made, but i think i'd better ask how you're doing now you may leave the hospital.

No hard feelings gentlemen, no offense at all. I understand you probably mean it in another way. But those who have problems with the English language or don't speak English at all won't understand it.

It is said before, we have many cultures on the forum here and a misunderstanding appears very easily as we have seen several times before.

The language is English on this forum and we all try to express ourselves in this language. But please let us all understand, especially for us members who have not English as our native language, that some expressions in another language mean something completely different and are not ment as an insult.

I wish every member on this forum, and his or hers beloved ones, from what culture you are, Peace, A merry Christmas and for later a prosperous and healthy new year.

[A. G. Maisey]

Henk, as the person who first used the word "troll" in this thread I believe it is my place to clarify both the meaning of the word in this context and the way in which I used it.

I will once again repeat what I said, because it seems clear to me that either what I have written is unclear, or people are simply not reading what I wrote.

This is important:- if something is written it is vital that the words written should be read and understood, the words written should not have meanings read into them, nor should they be interpreted in any other way than the way they are written.

For the third time, this is what I wrote:

"To my way of thinking this sort of behaviour comes dangerously close to the behaviour one would expect of a Troll."

At no time did call Semar a troll.

What I said was that his perceived behaviour was in my opinion dangerously close to the type of behaviour that one would expect of a Troll.

There is fine, but extremely important distinction between accusing a person of being a Troll and expressing one's personal opinion that a type of behaviour appears to be Troll-like.

The meaning of the word "troll" in the context in which I used it should not be understood in the way it would be understood in common English usage.

We are here engaged in an internet discussion Forum, and in this context the word "troll" should be understood as internet jargon, which as far as I am aware is universal.

In internet jargon a troll is a person who deliberately makes provocative statements in an attempt to ignite adverse or inflammatory reactions from others participating in the discussion.

I now understand and accept that Semar did not intend to act in this way, and that my perception was in error, but that perception was absolutely understandable when we take into consideration the fact that our opinions were sought in the absence of incomplete information that had already permitted Semar to form a concrete opinion.

I acknowledge that there can be considerable difficulties for non- native English speakers in a discussion group of this kind, and this becomes even more clear when I read the comments that my post # 13 have generated, I can count more that just one incidence of misunderstanding, or misinterpretation of what I have written. Whether these misunderstandings are genuine, or whether they are intentional I have no intention of even considering, but that they exist at all seems to indicate that a more careful reading of a written comment is essential, prior to rushing into print.

Incidentally, where the meaning of a word is unclear this can be very easily checked by using google, these days it is not even necessary in many instances to access a dictionary.

There is no shame in seeking clarification of the meaning of a word. I get paid for writing English, and even though I am a native English speaker and have had very long practice in my use of the language, I still regularly use a dictionary or thesaurus, or even consult Dr. Google when I am writing or reading.

[Henk]

Alan,

Thank you for your comment.

I wanted to make the misunderstanding clear. Actually not for myself. As a matter of fact, in the comment you wrote just to me you are completely right. Better, i could have written this by myself.

Please Alan, do understand that i highly appreciate you as a person, a fellow forum member and last but not least, for your skills.

Certainly you're right.
This is important:- if something is written it is vital that the words written should be read and understood, the words written should not have meanings read into them, nor should they be interpreted in any other way than the way they are written.


Maybe it is the wrong attitude but when i read the threads on the forum and i'm sure many members will do it in the same way, i read and look for pleasure, certainly willing to learn but not studying the comments on each character. But of course i read carefully so that i understand what is written about the presented item, perhaps missing some minor details.

For the third time, this is what I wrote:

"To my way of thinking this sort of behaviour comes dangerously close to the behaviour one would expect of a Troll."

At no time did call Semar a troll.

Yes Alan, I noticed you did. But when i translate it in dutch and adress it to a dutch person, not directly being aware of the internet jargon, and believe me, a lot of people are not known with internet jargon, it will be taken as an direct insult. Although you explained clearly what you ment and despite the fact above in the first quote, i must admitt that i frowned my eyebrows when i read it for the first time in post #13.

There is no shame in seeking clarification of the meaning of a word. I get paid for writing English, and even though I am a native English speaker and have had very long practice in my use of the language, I still regularly use a dictionary or thesaurus, or even consult Dr. Google when I am writing or reading.

Alan, when i'm writing also for my profession at school i do the same. When i read posts on the forum or articles that really litterally should be understood and concern me personally, yes, i study it very carefully.

I only wanted to make clear the intentions of Semar.
As we say here in Holland, we didn't all studied at the university and have a masterdegree.
When Semar would translate your writing with a dictionary or thesaurus in combination with google, it will cost him days work and even then you can ask yourself the question, is the translation readable and understandable as it was originally written? I doubt it.

When i put you in the same situation as Semar and i would send you a text in dutch, i would be very curious to your translation and your understanding of the text.
But you are well educated Alan, and that makes a difference.

Please, let us enjoy and study weapons and not spoil our time to these conversations.

I do appreciate you highly Alan.

Regards, Henk

[David]

Gentlemen...i had truly hoped we had put this little bump in the road to bed.
Please rest assured Henk, that this topic has been discussed through PM with both Alan and Semar by our moderation staff and, i had hoped, been resolved already. It is fine that you are feeling empathy for your countryman and feel the need to come to his defense in this matter, but i do hope that i have left the door open to Semar to have any further discussions with me if he felt this problem was not already fully resolved. I think Alan has already been clear that he regrets the use of the word "troll" and has fully explained what his intended usage of the word was to begin with and that it is an inaccurate application in this case. I have been in private discussion with Semar so i do not think it is necessary for you at this point to step in to make Semar's intentions clear. He has already done that. We have already come to the conclusion that this was a matter of miscommunication based upon Semar's lack of English skills. I have already commended him privately for his efforts to communicate here in English as i would personally be at a loss to do the same with him in Dutch.
That said, along with your opening statement here that "on the end of the thread, i finally see the right conclussions" can only lead us to your last statement, "Please, let us enjoy and study weapons and not spoil our time to these conversations." So please Henk, let's do just that...