New yataghan

Rivkin · 3rd December 2005, 07:19 PM

Yannis: Yes, I know... There are still a few legitimate sellers who sell real khevsur swords.

Ariel: VVery nice. What is your opinion about the kindjal's origins ?

ariel · 5th December 2005, 06:00 PM

I have been thinking about the origin myself...
The best would be to read the armourer's mark on the blade and I shall try to find a translator ( afraid, there are very few Chechens around here, though...)
The form might be of help:
Circassian kinjals wer smaller and narrow-er ( except for Shapsughs', but those were shorter). Daghestani/Chechen kindjals had better silverwork, but that was after Shamil; The Great Leader favoured simple iron. The ornament has nothing to do with the traditional Avar/Chechen/Daghestani motives: too simple .
I would stick my neck out and say: Georgian. They had blades of any kind, and 3-rivet handles. Flimsy evidence, to put it mildly, but I can't do better than that. Why couldn't the bugger sign his name on the scabbard??
What do you think?

Rivkin · 5th December 2005, 07:00 PM

Well, I don't think "amale mussa" or something like this would help us even if it would appear on the scabbard.

1. I don't know if I understood you correctly - there is a mark on the blade, and it is not in arabic ? You suspect it's in chechen ??? I can have it translated, but I am really puzzled by this fact.

2. IMHO: it's definitely not chechen, most likely not dagestanian. I've seen too few circassian kindjals to say anything (I heard many times about shapsugian wide kindjals, but never seen one). Definitely not armenian, and not osethian. Georgian ? There is however one thing - we can make our judgement based on XIX century styles, but I don't think we have an extensive knowledge of earlier kindjals (I don't remember any pre XIX century kindjals in Astvatsaturjan). It may be that earlier niello was indeed more primitive than super-elaborate XIX century styles.

I would really like to see this mark you refer to.

ham · 9th December 2005, 03:55 AM

Gentlemen,

Actually, this is Chechen work. Culturally, the Chechens were more closely associated with the Cherkess-- their belief in Nart cosmogony stands as evidence for this. Due largely to geography, they were often politically aligned with Daghestan during the 19th century. As a result, their decorative repetoire could include the entire range of Circassian motifs but also drew on Daghestan styles as well. Sparse engraving and use of niello and gilding were found side by side with extensive engraving, chiselling and large, complex areas of niello.
After the Murid Wars, and increasingly into the early 20th century, Chechen work was also distinguishable by a sometimes random combination of these styles, with no particular one prevailing-- sorry to say, as time went on, the workmanship was rarely equal to either of its cultural ancestors. The motifs on the scabbard and lower grip mount of this kindjal are a simplified "spiral vine" often worked in fine relief by Kubachi smiths. Here, it has been deeply engraved into the silver and heavily embellished in niello. Unfortunately, neither the grip buttons nor the central decoration assist in establishing a place of origin as they are all associated-- the buttons from a belt and the central ornament from a horse trapping. This however indicates the paucity of materials in early 20th century Chechnia, and the desire to maintain traditional motifs. It is typical of Chechen weapons which survived the Revolution and First World War.
The grip of this dagger is also closely derived from a particularly popular Kubachi type usually rendered entirely in silver, ivory, or a combination thereof. Great store was set by heirloom blades, hence the appearance of an early date on the blade of the kindjal under discussion is not incredible though the mounts clearly postdate it.
Caucasian arms, perhaps more than any others save Indonesian, require a great deal of study of individual examples in order to begin to be able to categorize them. The Russian and Turkish museums afford the best selection for the serious student but can be difficult to gain access to. The works of Mrs. Astvatsaturian and Mr. Askhabov are likewise invaluable and now, thanks to the internet, generally available.
Posting an image of the mark on the blade would probably be very helpful.

Sincerely,

Ham

Rivkin · 9th December 2005, 05:16 AM

I did not find any kindjal like this in Astvatsaturjan or in my archives of ebay. Obviously I lack skills and knowledge to classify kindjals with great precision. My classification was based upon: the ornament, as you said, is not very dense. it is in circassian style, but definitely not circassian. It is also dissimilar to all examples (and here by knowledge is very limited) that I've seen, but the gut feeling would be towards eclectic Georgian origin.

I can not contest your identification (because I can not show a georgian kindjal like this, and frankly my idea of its origins is rather vague). But I can definitely contest the "Culturally, the Chechens were more closely associated with the Cherkess-- their belief in Nart cosmogony stands as evidence for this. Due largely to geography, they were often politically aligned with Daghestan during the 19th century. As a result, their decorative repetoire could include the entire range of Circassian motifs but also drew on Daghestan styles as well. Sparse engraving and use of niello and gilding were found side by side with extensive engraving, chiselling and large, complex areas of niello. "

Narts are common for all northern caucasian nations. In my humble opinion, in the same time the chechen and circassian versions are the _most_ dissimilar to one another... They are dissimilar to the point that vocabularies used to quote for nart "in chechen and ingush myths - monster...".
Dumezil attributes narts in chechen myths specifically to osethian-chechen conflicts and interactions. The origin of narts is dark and unknown. Once, iranian and greek myths were thought to be the origin, but now, on the contrary, narts are thought by many to be older than most greek myths. At the same time, chechens are also one of the least nart-influenced nations. Christians, sun and fire-woshippers, but never I heard related to ancient chechens xabzeists or nartists. Clans that descend from Circassians do exist, but in the numbers that are way smaller than that of gurj, rusi, or even zhukty.
Culturally I would say they are also way more similar to avars and dagestanians (starting with vainakh language), than to Kabarda or Abaz. I find it hard to believe that their alliance with avars and Shamil can be attributed to georgaphy.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

3rd December 2005, 07:19 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Yannis: Yes, I know... There are still a few legitimate sellers who sell real khevsur swords. Ariel: VVery nice. What is your opinion about the kindjal's origins ?

5th December 2005, 06:00 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have been thinking about the origin myself... The best would be to read the armourer's mark on the blade and I shall try to find a translator ( afraid, there are very few Chechens around here, though...) The form might be of help: Circassian kinjals wer smaller and narrow-er ( except for Shapsughs', but those were shorter). Daghestani/Chechen kindjals had better silverwork, but that was after Shamil; The Great Leader favoured simple iron. The ornament has nothing to do with the traditional Avar/Chechen/Daghestani motives: too simple . I would stick my neck out and say: Georgian. They had blades of any kind, and 3-rivet handles. Flimsy evidence, to put it mildly, but I can't do better than that. Why couldn't the bugger sign his name on the scabbard?? What do you think?

5th December 2005, 07:00 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, I don't think "amale mussa" or something like this would help us even if it would appear on the scabbard. 1. I don't know if I understood you correctly - there is a mark on the blade, and it is not in arabic ? You suspect it's in chechen ??? I can have it translated, but I am really puzzled by this fact. 2. IMHO: it's definitely not chechen, most likely not dagestanian. I've seen too few circassian kindjals to say anything (I heard many times about shapsugian wide kindjals, but never seen one). Definitely not armenian, and not osethian. Georgian ? There is however one thing - we can make our judgement based on XIX century styles, but I don't think we have an extensive knowledge of earlier kindjals (I don't remember any pre XIX century kindjals in Astvatsaturjan). It may be that earlier niello was indeed more primitive than super-elaborate XIX century styles. I would really like to see this mark you refer to.

9th December 2005, 03:55 AM	#4
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, Actually, this is Chechen work. Culturally, the Chechens were more closely associated with the Cherkess-- their belief in Nart cosmogony stands as evidence for this. Due largely to geography, they were often politically aligned with Daghestan during the 19th century. As a result, their decorative repetoire could include the entire range of Circassian motifs but also drew on Daghestan styles as well. Sparse engraving and use of niello and gilding were found side by side with extensive engraving, chiselling and large, complex areas of niello. After the Murid Wars, and increasingly into the early 20th century, Chechen work was also distinguishable by a sometimes random combination of these styles, with no particular one prevailing-- sorry to say, as time went on, the workmanship was rarely equal to either of its cultural ancestors. The motifs on the scabbard and lower grip mount of this kindjal are a simplified "spiral vine" often worked in fine relief by Kubachi smiths. Here, it has been deeply engraved into the silver and heavily embellished in niello. Unfortunately, neither the grip buttons nor the central decoration assist in establishing a place of origin as they are all associated-- the buttons from a belt and the central ornament from a horse trapping. This however indicates the paucity of materials in early 20th century Chechnia, and the desire to maintain traditional motifs. It is typical of Chechen weapons which survived the Revolution and First World War. The grip of this dagger is also closely derived from a particularly popular Kubachi type usually rendered entirely in silver, ivory, or a combination thereof. Great store was set by heirloom blades, hence the appearance of an early date on the blade of the kindjal under discussion is not incredible though the mounts clearly postdate it. Caucasian arms, perhaps more than any others save Indonesian, require a great deal of study of individual examples in order to begin to be able to categorize them. The Russian and Turkish museums afford the best selection for the serious student but can be difficult to gain access to. The works of Mrs. Astvatsaturian and Mr. Askhabov are likewise invaluable and now, thanks to the internet, generally available. Posting an image of the mark on the blade would probably be very helpful. Sincerely, Ham

9th December 2005, 05:16 AM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I did not find any kindjal like this in Astvatsaturjan or in my archives of ebay. Obviously I lack skills and knowledge to classify kindjals with great precision. My classification was based upon: the ornament, as you said, is not very dense. it is in circassian style, but definitely not circassian. It is also dissimilar to all examples (and here by knowledge is very limited) that I've seen, but the gut feeling would be towards eclectic Georgian origin. I can not contest your identification (because I can not show a georgian kindjal like this, and frankly my idea of its origins is rather vague). But I can definitely contest the "Culturally, the Chechens were more closely associated with the Cherkess-- their belief in Nart cosmogony stands as evidence for this. Due largely to geography, they were often politically aligned with Daghestan during the 19th century. As a result, their decorative repetoire could include the entire range of Circassian motifs but also drew on Daghestan styles as well. Sparse engraving and use of niello and gilding were found side by side with extensive engraving, chiselling and large, complex areas of niello. " Narts are common for all northern caucasian nations. In my humble opinion, in the same time the chechen and circassian versions are the _most_ dissimilar to one another... They are dissimilar to the point that vocabularies used to quote for nart "in chechen and ingush myths - monster...". Dumezil attributes narts in chechen myths specifically to osethian-chechen conflicts and interactions. The origin of narts is dark and unknown. Once, iranian and greek myths were thought to be the origin, but now, on the contrary, narts are thought by many to be older than most greek myths. At the same time, chechens are also one of the least nart-influenced nations. Christians, sun and fire-woshippers, but never I heard related to ancient chechens xabzeists or nartists. Clans that descend from Circassians do exist, but in the numbers that are way smaller than that of gurj, rusi, or even zhukty. Culturally I would say they are also way more similar to avars and dagestanians (starting with vainakh language), than to Kabarda or Abaz. I find it hard to believe that their alliance with avars and Shamil can be attributed to georgaphy.