Bayonet marked with Spital

NigelP · 27th August 2014, 01:40 PM

I've got a bayonet I'm trying to identify. It seems to be marked on the blade with a maker's name Spital (in spiral form) plus aS within the spiral. It also has GF and an emblem that I can't quite work out at the moment.

The guard has 84, 356 and R marked on it. It has a barrel hole of 19mm diameter and the handle has a spring catch retainer.

The blade is 47cms long and down-curved.

Anbody any ideas of it's provenance?

Shakethetrees · 28th August 2014, 05:33 AM

If you can post an image, I'm sure you will get some help, as a picture is worth a thousand words!

NigelP · 28th August 2014, 10:38 PM

Here's some....

TVV · 29th August 2014, 12:08 AM

M 1867 Werndl Austrian Bayonet.

Regards,
Teodor

Fernando K · 29th August 2014, 12:12 PM

Hi there:

I fail to see the area of the tip, but I get the impression that is a cut sheet yathagan.

Affectionately. Fernando K

NigelP · 1st September 2014, 10:09 PM

Many thanks for your inputs; not sure the significance of Yathagan (apologies for my ignorance

but having now looked up the Werndl reference I can see many web entries for such things.... most interesting!

Does M1867 mean the year or just the model (or both)? I had assumed this would have been a WW1 piece..... would that be valid? Elsewhere on this website I've had a thread about a Russian Court Sword which turned out to be 1826-ish and I'm trying to see how this all fits into my family history.

I've also got a kukris but more on that later when I've had time to examine and photograph it !

Regards

Nigel

Ken Maddock · 2nd September 2014, 08:11 PM

M 1867 would be the model number and would mean the bayonet could be younger than this but not older
Fernando is saying cut short and not cut sheet as his text says,just a typo I imagine
What this means is the blade originally had curve but has been shortened
Blades with curve such as this we're call,ed yagathan ( not sure on spelling). If the ring is 18.9 mm then it has not been re bushed and would still fit on original rifle

The imperial armies were great re users of weapons an I would imagine this could be wwi as there was lot of re issue to second line regiments
Hope this helps
Ken

M ELEY · 3rd September 2014, 11:01 AM

Not my area of expertise, but a few words. Yataghan style bayonets were French from the 1870's and would have the tracing of 'Klingenthal' (the arsenal where they were produced) on the flat of the blade if this is a cut-down. The reference to yataghans comes from the Turkish and Persian swords of the same name which had curving blades with a T-backed bolster. If you look directly down the blade, do you see a 'T'? If so, Fernando K might be right. I'm unfamiliar with the Austrian model mentioned, but it makes sense as far as the time period.

Kmaddock · 4th September 2014, 12:33 PM

Hi
Yataghan style bayonets were across the nations

Britain had them on the Snider and enfield rifles
Austria had them on the Werndl rifle
the most common is indeed the French Chespot model 1866 bolt-action
very very comon with the brass handle
and of the top of my ghead the Turks had them

The unshortened Werndl's are a lot rarer but do exist

Hope this adds more flesh to the story
regards
Ken

fernando · 4th September 2014, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

...Yataghan style bayonets were across the nations ...
Britain had them on the Snider and enfield rifles ...

... As also in the Westley Richards ... at least in the versions exported to Portugal.

Kmaddock · 4th September 2014, 02:39 PM

Hi Fernando
a bit out side my comfort zone, but
I think Westley Richards were just contracted to Enfield to make the pattern 1853 Musket
commonly known as
Enfield pattern 1853, 3 Band rifle

Westley Richards were (and still are gunmakers) but I am unaware if they make an actual model rifle that was adopted by armies.
I am happy to be correct on this,
i would be interested to know if the bayonet was the same though as i am on the lookout for a Snider conversion rifle bayonet to match my Snider and a portugese version would be acceptable
regards
Ken

fernando · 4th September 2014, 04:27 PM

Hi Ken,
Westley Richards also had military comitments.
They even tried to introduce their pistol in the British Army, without success.
Their 'monkey tail' system became famous; following a couple flirts with the Portuguese Arsenal, patent allowance and all that, ended up with a contract of 1000 pistols to Portuguese Cavalry (the only existing quantity of the kind), besides a few thousand rifles and carbines.
Not so easy finding the correspondent (sword) bayonets.

.

Kmaddock · 4th September 2014, 05:49 PM

Hi Fernando
Thanks for extra Information
Ken

spiral · 4th September 2014, 10:17 PM

If only it said spiral! Id have to find one!

Interesting piece!

Spiral

NigelP · 4th October 2014, 01:49 PM

Hi all. Sorry not to follow this up sooner but have just returned from a three-week vacation

.

Lots of interesting comments. I found this which is remarkably similar;

http://www.stewartsmilitaryantiques....9.archive.htm#

In answer to the comment about a T-section then yes it does look like a (waisted) T in cross-section behind the point region; ie it has a flat top to the blade.

No sign of "Klingenthal".

This blade is a little over 18" long ( a bit shorter than the one in the link above).

Any ideas about the name Spital? I didn't manage to trace this name on the web.

M ELEY · 5th October 2014, 05:20 AM

I made an error earlier with the 'Klingenthal' comment. Very tired these days-

What I meant to say was a French marking for the arsenal at St. Etaine, but you say there's no marking at all on the T-backed balde. Any signs that it has been sanded or rubbed off? The etchings are sometimes weak to begin with...

27th August 2014, 01:40 PM	#1
NigelP Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 6	Bayonet marked with Spital I've got a bayonet I'm trying to identify. It seems to be marked on the blade with a maker's name Spital (in spiral form) plus aS within the spiral. It also has GF and an emblem that I can't quite work out at the moment. The guard has 84, 356 and R marked on it. It has a barrel hole of 19mm diameter and the handle has a spring catch retainer. The blade is 47cms long and down-curved. Anbody any ideas of it's provenance?

28th August 2014, 10:38 PM	#3
NigelP Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 6	Here's some.... Attached Images

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28th August 2014, 05:33 AM	#2
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	If you can post an image, I'm sure you will get some help, as a picture is worth a thousand words!

29th August 2014, 12:08 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,622	M 1867 Werndl Austrian Bayonet. Regards, Teodor

29th August 2014, 12:12 PM	#5
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hi there: I fail to see the area of the tip, but I get the impression that is a cut sheet yathagan. Affectionately. Fernando K

1st September 2014, 10:09 PM	#6
NigelP Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 6	Many thanks for your inputs; not sure the significance of Yathagan (apologies for my ignorance but having now looked up the Werndl reference I can see many web entries for such things.... most interesting! Does M1867 mean the year or just the model (or both)? I had assumed this would have been a WW1 piece..... would that be valid? Elsewhere on this website I've had a thread about a Russian Court Sword which turned out to be 1826-ish and I'm trying to see how this all fits into my family history. I've also got a kukris but more on that later when I've had time to examine and photograph it ! Regards Nigel

2nd September 2014, 08:11 PM	#7
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	M 1867 would be the model number and would mean the bayonet could be younger than this but not older Fernando is saying cut short and not cut sheet as his text says,just a typo I imagine What this means is the blade originally had curve but has been shortened Blades with curve such as this we're call,ed yagathan ( not sure on spelling). If the ring is 18.9 mm then it has not been re bushed and would still fit on original rifle The imperial armies were great re users of weapons an I would imagine this could be wwi as there was lot of re issue to second line regiments Hope this helps Ken

3rd September 2014, 11:01 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Not my area of expertise, but a few words. Yataghan style bayonets were French from the 1870's and would have the tracing of 'Klingenthal' (the arsenal where they were produced) on the flat of the blade if this is a cut-down. The reference to yataghans comes from the Turkish and Persian swords of the same name which had curving blades with a T-backed bolster. If you look directly down the blade, do you see a 'T'? If so, Fernando K might be right. I'm unfamiliar with the Austrian model mentioned, but it makes sense as far as the time period.

4th September 2014, 12:33 PM	#9
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Yataghan style bayonets were across the nations Britain had them on the Snider and enfield rifles Austria had them on the Werndl rifle the most common is indeed the French Chespot model 1866 bolt-action very very comon with the brass handle and of the top of my ghead the Turks had them The unshortened Werndl's are a lot rarer but do exist Hope this adds more flesh to the story regards Ken

4th September 2014, 02:39 PM	#11
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Fernando a bit out side my comfort zone, but I think Westley Richards were just contracted to Enfield to make the pattern 1853 Musket commonly known as Enfield pattern 1853, 3 Band rifle Westley Richards were (and still are gunmakers) but I am unaware if they make an actual model rifle that was adopted by armies. I am happy to be correct on this, i would be interested to know if the bayonet was the same though as i am on the lookout for a Snider conversion rifle bayonet to match my Snider and a portugese version would be acceptable regards Ken

4th September 2014, 05:49 PM	#13
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Fernando Thanks for extra Information Ken

4th September 2014, 10:17 PM	#14
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	If only it said spiral! Id have to find one! Interesting piece! Spiral

4th October 2014, 01:49 PM	#15
NigelP Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 6	Hi all. Sorry not to follow this up sooner but have just returned from a three-week vacation . Lots of interesting comments. I found this which is remarkably similar; http://www.stewartsmilitaryantiques....9.archive.htm# In answer to the comment about a T-section then yes it does look like a (waisted) T in cross-section behind the point region; ie it has a flat top to the blade. No sign of "Klingenthal". This blade is a little over 18" long ( a bit shorter than the one in the link above). Any ideas about the name Spital? I didn't manage to trace this name on the web.

5th October 2014, 05:20 AM	#16
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	I made an error earlier with the 'Klingenthal' comment. Very tired these days- What I meant to say was a French marking for the arsenal at St. Etaine, but you say there's no marking at all on the T-backed balde. Any signs that it has been sanded or rubbed off? The etchings are sometimes weak to begin with...