Kattara restoration

[Kubur]

Hello

I need some help to restore a kattara.
I looked on the forum and unfortunatly I didn't find any thread to help me.
The hilt is plain wood without leather.

I have two options,

I can cover it with plain leather black or brown.
May be with printed motives (with hot iron).

My second option is more ambitious, to cover the hilt with
a geometric design of metal wire.
I have seen on many kattara.
But I don't know which kind of wire to use
and how to proceed...

Many thanks in advance
K.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hello

I need some help to restore a kattara.
I looked on the forum and unfortunatly I didn't find any thread to help me.
The hilt is plain wood without leather.

I have two options,

I can cover it with plain leather black or brown.
May be with printed motives (with hot iron).

My second option is more ambitious, to cover the hilt with
a geometric design of metal wire.
I have seen on many kattara.
But I don't know which kind of wire to use
and how to proceed...

Many thanks in advance
K.

Hi can we see a photo of the item... it will inspire ideas... basically it sounds like you are going back to the sword at stage 3 of a 5 stage process... Im guessing... OK lets see a picture and we can take it on from there...
Any ethnographic history attached to this item ??

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Kubur]

Dear Ibrahim,

It's simple you have already some photos on the site:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kattara

I don't know anything about the guy who put these photos.
What I know is the sword was in the collection of Eric Laudes who sold it to a guy who sold it to a guy who sold it me...
It's a nice sword but needs a little bit of improvement for the handle/grip.
What do you think?

Choukran
Kubur

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Dear Ibrahim,

It's simple you have already some photos on the site:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kattara

I don't know anything about the guy who put these photos.
What I know is the sword was in the collection of Eric Laudes who sold it to a guy who sold it to a guy who sold it me...
It's a nice sword but needs a little bit of improvement for the handle/grip.
What do you think?

Choukran
Kubur

Salaams Kubur, I see that site was blocked but since the weapon now belongs to you we assume(I hope) that the details may now be accepted and since this is quite possibly an interesting variant of straight Omani Dancer...My post continues below....

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Dear Ibrahim,

It's simple you have already some photos on the site:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kattara

I don't know anything about the guy who put these photos.
What I know is the sword was in the collection of Eric Laudes who sold it to a guy who sold it to a guy who sold it me...
It's a nice sword but needs a little bit of improvement for the handle/grip.
What do you think?

Choukran
Kubur

Salaams Kubur, This looks like an Abu Falaj...the one with the falaj...A dancing sword with one fuller ~ or channel ~ along its whole length. Before I go any further I also assume that you have seen the hilts etc. on Omani Saif...and Omani Kattara...below;

1.see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=omani+sayf

2. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Omani+Kattara


Usually (but not always ) these weapons get the name tag of straight = Omani Sayf or Saif ... but when the blade is curved they are called Omani Kattara. The styling is often the same on both weapons regarding decoration to the hilt and scabbard. References above refer...and there is an especially beautiful hilt at #2 of reference 2.

I have, however, one burning question... Does the blade bend quite easily and return immediately to straight from the tip ... bending through about 90 degrees ... Is the blade in other words ...quite flexible?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Kubur]

Sabah al-khair Ibrahiim,

Thank you very much.
i have seen these threats.
The object is stored elsewhere, I will check your request next week.
My questions are : is it an imported blade?
And should I use leather or metal wire to cover the hilt?

Best wishes,
Kubur

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Sabah al-khair Ibrahiim,

Thank you very much.
i have seen these threats.
The object is stored elsewhere, I will check your request next week.
My questions are : is it an imported blade?
And should I use leather or metal wire to cover the hilt?

Best wishes,
Kubur

Salaams Kubur... I cannot say because I need to know the answer on flexibility first since a stiff blade will give a totally different answer. Omani flexible dancing blades, on the other hand, were made in Oman. I have seen cross hilted straight blades which are stiff and inflexible masquerading as dancing blades but which were imported via Yemen from Ethiopia, originally imported from Germany...and given the cross hilt treatment in Muscat for the tourist market...proliffic since 1970.

Thus the importance of the flexibility indicator question.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I have seen cross hilted straight blades which are stiff and inflexible masquerading as dancing blades but which were imported via Yemen from Ethiopia, originally imported from Germany...and given the cross hilt treatment in Muscat for the tourist market...proliffic since 1970.

Thus the importance of the flexibility indicator question.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Don't take this statement as absolute though as the strong bladed types from antiquity exist and are not masquerading as dance swords, they are what they are, strong fighting swords.
But beware, there are rubbish types with poor looks and ugly handles seen in the tourist dens that carry old blades. it is important to be able to distinguish the types.

Gavin

Gavin

[spiral]

Yes indeed chaps, sometimes we need to remember our imagination or belief is not an information resource.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Don't take this statement as absolute though as the strong bladed types from antiquity exist and are not masquerading as dance swords, they are what they are, strong fighting swords.
But beware, there are rubbish types with poor looks and ugly handles seen in the tourist dens that carry old blades. it is important to be able to distinguish the types.

Gavin

Gavin

No they aren't. Omani flexi dance blades came about at the beginning of the current dynastic rule period somewhere around (just after ) 1744..and continuously until today.. They were and still are used in pageants and march past salutation and dance and are incorporated into the Funoon. See below;
1.For Funoon see http://www.octm-folk.gov.om/meng/introduction.asp
2.For details on The Omani Dancing Sword see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Omani+Sayf

They were never used in battle as battle swords. Palace guards and Omani tribal soldiers did carry them... but only because it was one of their main duties... to raise a salute to the Sultan.

..not so unusual as you might think after all that is what happens in many armies today especially officers on parade who carry swords to conduct salutes with... especially in front of senior dignitaries and Royalty...

The Omani Battle Sword is different... The Sayf Yamaani... Library refers.

The bendy dancing sword has its "impersonators"... since there are some weapons of Red Sea providence which are very similar but which have been rehilted on Omani hilts but which are stiff...non flexible blades... These are from Ethiopian / German imports...often entering Oman via Yemeni traders and rehilted in Muscat.

The shop/workshops that carry out this work have vast supplies of varied quality blades some of which I would categorise as low value, however,some are original and excellent and have even found their way into important collections including museums; private and national.

With regard to the rehilts ~ They have been pumped onto the world stage in considerable quantities since about 1970 thus the peculiar appearance across the globe of apparently non flexible Omani Dancing Swords redesignated as fighting swords (which everyone here finds hilarious since they certainly werent used for that here)... but oddly may well be concoctions rehilted here... but which originally were actual battle blades from Ethiopia!!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Yes indeed chaps, sometimes we need to remember our imagination or belief is not an information resource.

Spiral

Can you show me where I have said that this is from my imagination please ?

Certainly it is what I believe ...through information from the National Museum, The Bayt al Falaj and the Bayt al Zubair museums...and of course the Richardson and Dorr Cultural foundation volumes etc plus of course my own observations here on the ground including exhaustive research and for about the last 4 decades collecting the items.

If you don't believe me come and see for yourself.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

It was a reminder to everyone.. including myself.

If you have never done that... you've done well.

If you've done it but cant see it............

Spiral

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by spiral

Yes indeed chaps, sometimes we need to remember our imagination or belief is not an information resource.

Spiral

Very well put!! We have been down this exact track at least once before.........

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Just to remind members that this is Kuburs thread on a restoration note... Anyone wishing to take on the discussion over the Omani Sword form (The dancing sword)is more than welcome to do so ...but on the correct thread which is http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=Omani+Sayf

Unless of course you would prefer to "imagine" rather than to "know" the facts; Obtuse remarks will not change the dancing sword into a fighting weapon no matter how many toys are thrown !

Bring it on...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Just to remind members that this is Kuburs thread on a restoration note... Anyone wishing to take on the discussion over the Omani Sword form (The dancing sword)is more than welcome to do so ...but on the correct thread which is http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=Omani+Sayf

Unless of course you would prefer to "imagine" rather than to "know" the facts; Obtuse remarks will not change the dancing sword into a fighting weapon no matter how many toys are thrown !

Bring it on...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Please know you first wandered down the garden path about dances and such on the thread you now wish us to return to suddenly. I have just picked up the ball once it was kicked in this thread.

I do not want to draw on fiction and change one sword to another, I only want you to understand there are dance sword which you describe so well and there are swords with fighting blade of the same form being from antiquity, that is all.
It cannot be denied or passed off as bazaar rubbish for tourist if it does not conform to your beliefs. The knowledge of the fact that there are both types in existence should be shared with all.

I am happy to listen to your methods of leather and silver binding for the restoration, please proceed but without quantifying your sole beliefs about what the blade must be first before you do...it is the binding in question for the hilt form.

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

Double post of the same Please delete my rolling eyes....

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Please know you first wandered down the garden path about dances and such on the thread you now wish us to return to suddenly. I have just picked up the ball once it was kicked in this thread.

I do not want to draw on fiction and change one sword to another, I only want you to understand there are dance sword which you describe so well and there are swords with fighting blade of the same form being from antiquity, that is all.
It cannot be denied or passed off as bazaar rubbish for tourist if it does not conform to your beliefs. The knowledge of the fact that there are both types in existence should be shared with all.

I am happy to listen to your methods of leather and silver binding for the restoration, please proceed but without quantifying your sole beliefs about what the blade must be first before you do...it is the binding in question for the hilt form.

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons, There are not two types in existence and never have been. The straight dancing sword or Sayf was invented for the current dynasty shortly after 1744 AD. It conforms to one specific styling that encompasses a flat spatulate blade with a round tip and sharp on both edges.(this is a deliberate reflection of the Sayf Yamaani Omani Battle Sword styling) The primary blade requirement is that it must be flexible..for vibrating the blade when dancing or salutations to the Ruler. The usual bend is easily through 90 degrees. The hilt must be conical...historically this comes from the curved Kattara weapon hilt worn by Omani slave masters.

Confusion and misunderstanding have tricked onlookers/visitors to Oman throughout history into imagining that the dancing sword must have been used in battle. It never was. It was carried by soldiers for ceremonial salutation and pageantry duties only.(Funun)

In fact it must be viewed as a dynastic ceremonial sword.
************************************************** *

Question ~So where does the sword which has a stiff apparent fighting blade for come from?

Answer ~ Ethiopia
~and having originally been made in Germany as a trade blade...Used in Ethiopia then exported via Yemen where the hilts which were usually Rhino were stripped off...and used for Jambia hilts... backyard rough hilts were placed ...and the weapons were sold in Sanaa etc...Many were transferred to Oman where since 1970 they have been sold as is ...complete with rough iron hilts or further rehilted in the Omani Style; some quite expertly so...and with welded hilt extensions plus the Omani Pommel and conical hilts and look every inch like a dancer except they aren't...but were sold through Muttrah Souk to non suspecting tourists worldwide. This is still being done.

(I estimate that since 1970 thousands of rehilts may have been thus produced.)

These are not Omani fighting blades but ironically they are probably Ethiopian fighting blades...simply the result of souk trade transfer and clever rehilting...Ethiopia.... Yemen ... Oman. Origin; Germany.

Thus the designation is Tourist Sword.

SEE #241 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments which shows a German made sword from Ethiopia having done the international souk transfer and finally having been given the Muttrah treatment before being re hilted with an Omani conical hilt plus silver work etc then sold to Tourists ..

I have given the thread originator the Forum site from which he can observe many different hilt decorative styles. Before proceeding with any other beneficial assistance I would prefer to know what is the blade... Omani or Ethiopian?... so that I may advise accordingly... and so that he may know the facts.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Kubur, I see that site was blocked but since the weapon now belongs to you we assume(I hope) that the details may now be accepted and since this is quite possibly an interesting variant of straight Omani Dancer...My post continues below....

Salaams Kubur, A similar hilt appears on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments at #325 on a curved kattara. You can see how the silver sits inserted into the cut away hilt and I assume this would be the same on your sword.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

So it continues here :-)

Both exist, I am sorry you can't see nor accept it and did not wish to inspect first hand those I had offered.
If I based your previous defence on the matter as absolute one would have to consider every sword presented on the subject as a souk fake...
There are a few points about the flexible blades, their origins and types that need to be taken with more consideration too as your theories are not absolute.

Kubur, I will have time next week to draw from images I have in sold stock archives that display both simple and complex hilt bindings. I am sure you will be able to base a sound restoration on them.

Please remind me if I forget.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

So it continues here :-)

Both exist, I am sorry you can't see nor accept it and did not wish to inspect first hand those I had offered.
If I based your previous defence on the matter as absolute one would have to consider every sword presented on the subject as a souk fake...
There are a few points about the flexible blades, their origins and types that need to be taken with more consideration too as your theories are not absolute.

Kubur, I will have time next week to draw from images I have in sold stock archives that display both simple and complex hilt bindings. I am sure you will be able to base a sound restoration on them.

Please remind me if I forget.

Gavin

It continues here because you refuse to continue it elsewhere... Your offer to inspect your sword in Australia was vaguelly irrelevant...I am in Oman...Why would I want to go to Australia to see Omani Swords?

You make a sweeping remark about swords which I observe as fakes...Irrelevant; try to stay on subject..

If you have a few points about the sword type in question why don't you float them here ? Or on the correct thread below;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Omani+Sayf

My question to the thread originator is designed to see if the sword is a tourist item or an original Omani Sayf... The Dancing Sword. If you have perhaps accidentally misrepresented a sword ..sold from your collection... as a fighting blade when the sword type was for Dancing and Pageants only...that is your problem. Consider changing your Historical Package to accomodate the correct detail.

The Omani Dancing Sword..Pageants, Funun and Salutations only... Never a Fighting Sword.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Sabah al-khair Ibrahiim,

Thank you very much.
i have seen these threats.
The object is stored elsewhere, I will check your request next week.
My qu
And sestions are : is it an imported blade?hould I use leather or metal wire to cover the hilt?

Best wishes,
Kubur

Salaams Kubur You may see that quite a storm errupts arround the controvertial Omani Dancing Sword. Although you may not be aware of it these swords change hands for reasonably large fees since many (if they are genuine) are held in families as heir looms...and the important ones seldom come up for sale. Library resource contains The Omani Kattara , The Omani Saif(or the Omani Dancing Sword) and Kattara for Comments. All of these have samples of decorative style.

Your Questions ....
1. Is it an imported blade? To help you decide if this is an imported blade I request the blade bend test to measure flexibility.

2. To use wire or leather to cover the hilt. The designs at library references are clear and offer a variety of approaches. I would consider replacing the silver thumb and forefinger position silver ring or cuff...at the forefront of the hilt. This will enhance the look of the sword and return it to a hilt original look...and it will correctly lenghten the hilt by about 2 inches. You have the possibility of using leather as well...and or silver wire. You didn't mention a scabbard? The typical pattern to scabbard and often to hilt are the Omani Swirl patterns ... Quite a lot to consider...

For me the important question revolves around the flexibility test...It looks like an old blade therefor please take the usual precautions for bending such a blade ...which I suggest should be done carefully and about 2 to 5 degrees at a time

If the blade refuses to bend or does not return to straight immediately... stop! Otherwise it may snap...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

I do continue as the absoluteness of your statements and belief is incorrect and you wish to press this notion elsewhere other than the links you refer to.

My sword offer was replied with a flat NO with not the slightest bit of interest it looking at further options as your belief doesn't allow expansion.

The sword shown here, its origin has been mentioned, my name is not Eric???

I have no problem with what I state about what I have held, surely that is obvious with the volumes of text in these pages....

you ask me to stay on subject but do not yourself, how is one to accept this request?

I know not what is missed with my statements?

It is simple; I am not taking anything away from your dance swords, dance with them, let them bend, this is your dance sword you passionately defend, present them any way you like.

There is another of the same type that does not bend... if these swords of the past were hung on hips, left by beds or used to travel to far away lands as was anyone's want. It does not need classification as your dance sword or to be reputed as souk rubbish...souk rubbish is very obvious and differences in types is obvious in the hand...it is not anyone else's fault....consider changing your absolute views on the subject

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

There is another of the same type that does not bend...
Gavin[/QUOTE]
************************************************** *********


Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons, It would be great if there was one (why would I deny it?)... however;

No there isn't. Not counting the Omani Shamshiir which I put down to being a VIP Sword/dignatories only, there are 3 sword types designated Omani viz;

1. Omani Battle Sword.. or Sayf Yamaani. For Fighting.
2. Omani Curved Sword .. or Kattara. The slavers sword.
3. Omani Dancing Sword .. or Sayf (Saif). Pageants and Salutation only.

The designation Omani Dancing Sword carries the description Conical Hilt, broad, flexible blade often fullered with 1, 2 or three grooves. A flat spatulate tip, rounded. Sharpened on both edges. The flexible blade easily bending through 90 degrees so that the sword can be vibrated whilst dancing. This action is carried out with the flick of the wrist and is vital to the swords duel function in the traditional march past and pageants or "Funun".

A sword that looks like the dancing sword but is of Ethiopian/German origins and is stiff is considered as a Tourist sword sold in the souk to tourists since 1970...and occasionally fetching high prices apparently. Omani people don't buy them since as they dont bend they cannot be danced with thus are useless for the march past and Funun.

Omani Dancing Swords are not fighting weapons. They never were. Think of them as Dynastic swords invented just after 1744 for Celebration and Pageantry...Salutation and Parades...for what is in fact the current Dynasty..

No matter how warlike you may consider them they were never used in war.

There is no other derivative except the style that has been played with by the souk workshops for the Tourist market. Viz;

German>Ethiopia>Yemen >Oman > Souk> World. Here is a picture of one such blade (stiff)...from the workshop that has been converting thousands of such blades since 1970...brought in from Sanaa... previously of Ethiopian ownership...a German Blade...they are not all tripple fullered ...this one happens to be SEE #241 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hello

I need some help to restore a kattara.
I looked on the forum and unfortunatly I didn't find any thread to help me.
The hilt is plain wood without leather.

I have two options,

I can cover it with plain leather black or brown.
May be with printed motives (with hot iron).

My second option is more ambitious, to cover the hilt with
a geometric design of metal wire.
I have seen on many kattara.
But I don't know which kind of wire to use
and how to proceed...

Many thanks in advance
K.

Salaams Kubur,
Hilt and Scabbard Design
Looking around I remembered a post on a thread which has been moved to the non weapon forum see #17 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15083

I note from the same thread that you may in fact be visiting Oman ... It may be advisable to wait until that time to collect up the spare parts you need or to sort out a renovation whilst you are here...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

There is another of the same type that does not bend...
Gavin
************************************************** *********


Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons, It would be great if there was one (why would I deny it?)... however;

No there isn't. Not counting the Omani Shamshiir which I put down to being a VIP Sword/dignatories only, there are 3 sword types designated Omani viz;

1. Omani Battle Sword.. or Sayf Yamaani. For Fighting.
2. Omani Curved Sword .. or Kattara. The slavers sword.
3. Omani Dancing Sword .. or Sayf (Saif). Pageants and Salutation only.

The designation Omani Dancing Sword carries the description Conical Hilt, broad, flexible blade often fullered with 1, 2 or three grooves. A flat spatulate tip, rounded. Sharpened on both edges. The flexible blade easily bending through 90 degrees so that the sword can be vibrated whilst dancing. This action is carried out with the flick of the wrist and is vital to the swords duel function in the traditional march past and pageants or "Funun".

A sword that looks like the dancing sword but is of Ethiopian/German origins and is stiff is considered as a Tourist sword sold in the souk to tourists since 1970...and occasionally fetching high prices apparently. Omani people don't buy them since as they dont bend they cannot be danced with thus are useless for the march past and Funun.

Omani Dancing Swords are not fighting weapons. They never were. Think of them as Dynastic swords invented just after 1744 for Celebration and Pageantry...Salutation and Parades...for what is in fact the current Dynasty..

No matter how warlike you may consider them they were never used in war.

There is no other derivative except the style that has been played with by the souk workshops for the Tourist market. Viz;

German>Ethiopia>Yemen >Oman > Souk> World. Here is a picture of one such blade (stiff)...from the workshop that has been converting thousands of such blades since 1970...brought in from Sanaa... previously of Ethiopian ownership...a German Blade...they are not all tripple fullered ...this one happens to be SEE #241 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Yes my mind boggles at the denial and that your eyes are so closed. You defend a theory you consider 100% absolute with never a chance of a single individual in the past straying from this conviction of yours...

The souk items you speak of are not even a shadow of the old swords in the style we differ opinion on, the notion is void in when comparing these and old examples.

By your reckoning, in 1744 onwards, a new hilted was just designed and everyone queued for the next 100 years to get one and not a single person re-hilted an old battle sword or an heirloom blade in this "newer" style hilt.

Through divine intervention, they all kept their old battle swords at home and rushed off to the nearest market place to buy a new type of sword they can dance with because they all had pockets full of gold and a desire to "keep up with the Jones’s", this and sword makers were pumping these new swords out by the tens of thousands to appease the masses during this time....sounds like an economy stimulus package.

By this reckoning, simply by these people then keeping these old straight battle swords with quillons, there should be so many available to collectors to sight, yet they remain elusive I would say 1 old for every 50 new would be generous....but hang on Hilda, they now, during this period of 1744 onwards, suddenly chose to use a curved sword with the dancing hilt for fighting, never a straight sword with this new hilt, gentlemen of the period just thought how cool it would be to forget all they learned with the old straight sword, a comfort and knowledge ingrained in to their very being to suddenly adopt a curved sword...but hang on again, NO, you'll tell me they all continued to use their old straight battle swords right up until the early 20th century based on one photo.

We continue to venture through the lands of Dragons and Makara.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Yes my mind boggles at the denial and that your eyes are so closed. You defend a theory you consider 100% absolute with never a chance of a single individual in the past straying from this conviction of yours...

The souk items you speak of are not even a shadow of the old swords in the style we differ opinion on, the notion is void in when comparing these and old examples.

By your reckoning, in 1744 onwards, a new hilted was just designed and everyone queued for the next 100 years to get one and not a single person re-hilted an old battle sword or an heirloom blade in this "newer" style hilt.

Through divine intervention, they all kept their old battle swords at home and rushed off to the nearest market place to buy a new type of sword they can dance with because they all had pockets full of gold and a desire to "keep up with the Jones’s", this and sword makers were pumping these new swords out by the tens of thousands to appease the masses during this time....sounds like an economy stimulus package.

By this reckoning, simply by these people then keeping these old straight battle swords with quillons, there should be so many available to collectors to sight, yet they remain elusive I would say 1 old for every 50 new would be generous....but hang on Hilda, they now, during this period of 1744 onwards, suddenly chose to use a curved sword with the dancing hilt for fighting, never a straight sword with this new hilt, gentlemen of the period just thought how cool it would be to forget all they learned with the old straight sword, a comfort and knowledge ingrained in to their very being to suddenly adopt a curved sword...but hang on again, NO, you'll tell me they all continued to use their old straight battle swords right up until the early 20th century based on one photo.

We continue to venture through the lands of Dragons and Makara.

Gavin

You are trying to prove ...with your square boomerang theory...that there is another type of Omani sword...a peculiar as yet not recognised stiff battle blade built around the dancing sword framework ...when in fact there has never been such a weapon. I have shown you where and how these swords of Ethiopian/ German decent have been done up for the Tourist market but you just don't believe me. I find it hilarious... however, I have given you the facts ... Go ahead and try to prove your new fighting-dancing sword theory.

You have quite a weird imagination and view of how the dancing sword/ battle sword and kattara evolved in the process...It is likely that the honorific dynastic dancing item commenced at palace guard and militia levels and diffused into the relatively small city/town populations over the decades following the Dynastic start date of 1744... not overnight ! It took on the hilt of the slaver weapon..the kattara ...and was sharp and round tipped reflecting the old battle sword...The dancing sword was relatively easy and quick to make..Flexibility was its key component. Two main centres Nizwa and Muscat as well as lesser village smiths Sanau, Sohar, Salalah would have been in on the production as well as the wandering gypsy sword makers.There was no relationship the old Battle sword blades being cross hilted to produce a sort of dancer-battle blade...or a separate specific straight battle bladed sword on a conical hilt.. None. It is not in this countrys history.

The only way this has crept into some peoples imaginations is because of the recent surge in Tourist rehilts as earlier described and since 1970.

The Battle Sword was the fighting blade. The Dancing Sword was for Pageants and Salutation..being important and encapsulated in the Funun..

If there was this ghost blade that you imagine and have concocted because you have made a mistake in being sucked in by a Tourist item...do you not think had this been a fact that I would have spotted it? Do you not think there would be examples in the Richardson and Dorr volumes....or in any of the Omani Museums...? It's funny but perhaps they seem to have overlooked it.

You have dreamed this one up. There is no such thing. Like the square boomerang? (I assume that your reference to Dragons and Makara is the out of context throw away addition added because you don't believe Kastane have hilts in that related form?...) Oh dear...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

The square Boomerang fits well in a square hole, however you insist on trying to push it into a round hole in all aspects of time and space.

I have stated my claim to your absolute belief very clearly above and provided readers with more than enough scope to see how flawed such an absolute claim is.

I will leave you to your faith on the subject, it has been entertaining.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

The square Boomerang fits well in a square hole, however you insist on trying to push it into a round hole in all aspects of time and space.

I have stated my claim to your absolute belief very clearly above and provided readers with more than enough scope to see how flawed such an absolute claim is.

I will leave you to your faith on the subject, it has been entertaining.

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

The ink is free...Here is the hot anvil of discussion... prove your point. The Museums, not to mention more than 2 million Omani people will be delighted with your astonishing new discovery...A completely new sword type.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

The anvil is cold and I am flogging a dead Makara with you...did you notice.
In it modern day context of the mid 20th century onwards, I have no doubt it has become the norm and socially acceptable about what you claim a sword type should be.
I have proved my point; a horse can only be led to water. Your theory about what a blade type should be in the past is full of holes. To consider no one ever placed an old heirloom blade in to a hilt of this style is light years beyond the realm of possibilities and to claim such an absolute strangle hold on the past and about the doings of every individual in it is but folly. Unless of course you have physic links and can speak with the dead, but even speaking with the dead one by one, you would lack enough of life’s precious breath to fully complete this task of speaking with these spirits...

If the discussions on the subject ever take a logical line I will be more than happy to entertain further discussion and point out further specifics about sword types I’ve bought sold and handled.

All the best,

Gavin.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

The anvil is cold and I am flogging a dead Makara with you...did you notice.
In it modern day context of the mid 20th century onwards, I have no doubt it has become the norm and socially acceptable about what you claim a sword type should be.
I have proved my point; a horse can only be led to water. Your theory about what a blade type should be in the past is full of holes. To consider no one ever placed an old heirloom blade in to a hilt of this style is light years beyond the realm of possibilities and to claim such an absolute strangle hold on the past and about the doings of every individual in it is but folly. Unless of course you have physic links and can speak with the dead, but even speaking with the dead one by one, you would lack enough of life’s precious breath to fully complete this task of speaking with these spirits...

If the discussions on the subject ever take a logical line I will be more than happy to entertain further discussion and point out further specifics about sword types I’ve bought sold and handled.

All the best,

Gavin.

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~

Sounds like you have watched too many zombie horror films? What on earth are you talking about...? Your note about logic is unbelievable... Why don't you follow that idea...?

Please show me what point you have proved? I have seen nothing but rhetoric and disjointed irrelevance floated here by you...? Can you please be logical and show me some sensible detail...Coherent ideas or anything to substantiate your theory..Some research would be useful.

Are you now saying that you have an heirloom sword mounted onto an Omani conical hilt? If I take a Scottish Claymore blade and mount it onto an Omani Hilt does that constitute an Omani fighting sword? Can I do the same with a Japanese Katana? What is the flexibility on the blade you have? Is the tip pointed? Is the blade thick for thrusting ? Show the sword.

I have invited you to place your theory so we can see what this is all about...Why don't you do it..?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.